Test kit in ... let the SLAMing begin!
- Thread starter buballodingo
- Start date
Oh...my bad...must have had toom much to drink that night...set it to zero...done
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- Jan 4, 2016
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Wow, you blokes have covered a lot of ground! Caco has you really well covered. I'll chip in on a couple things. Great job on the pool and the fully-tiled look is very classy.
I have the CCL kit as well, and for the CYA test there's only enough mixture to get up to the 40 line and it doesn't reach the 30 line. If you use one if the pipettes they include (a nice touch!) and fill to the same spot with a top up of pool water, and then a top up of CYA reagent, you can get enough to reach the 30 line. Just be sure it's the same amount. It's very important to hold with two fingers from the top, so light can get in to light up the particles that are suspended. I give it a couple minutes to fully react, and in winter I warm the sample up in my pocket which also helps. For me, when I can no longer distinguish the logo, even though there's a bit of a muddy darkness in the middle, that's about right.
Trust your own test results. Pool $tores are ALL over the place in terms of results. I tried five of them with the same water. Bizarre, but that's a big part of why TFPC works so much better. After you've tested a few times and checked your technique against the standards, you're better than any pool $tore.
Caco can walk you through it without draining, and his plan is good. But in my humble opinion, because of the copper, and if you're comfortable draining, do it. Start fresh with TFPC methods and your CYA will be precise out of the gate. It's just a weight and volume calculation. You can get the volume off your water meter (maybe you already have that) and use PoolMath which is highly reliable. If you give us the quantity of Tropiclear, we can calculate how much copper you added, but reality is that it's best to never add copper, ever. Everything can be done with chlorine, including mustard and black algae.
Did you use Start-up Tec? It's a metal sequestrant used to protect plaster from metal stains and will protect your grout the same way. If the pool is fairly new, there may be enough protection still happening from the start-up tec, and if not, you may be seeing some darkening on your grout.
This is a great thread and it's impressive how much you two have gotten through already. Well done!
Finally to be on the safe side, I wouldn't be using the heater until you're happy with the water. I'm guessing you already thought of that!
I have the CCL kit as well, and for the CYA test there's only enough mixture to get up to the 40 line and it doesn't reach the 30 line. If you use one if the pipettes they include (a nice touch!) and fill to the same spot with a top up of pool water, and then a top up of CYA reagent, you can get enough to reach the 30 line. Just be sure it's the same amount. It's very important to hold with two fingers from the top, so light can get in to light up the particles that are suspended. I give it a couple minutes to fully react, and in winter I warm the sample up in my pocket which also helps. For me, when I can no longer distinguish the logo, even though there's a bit of a muddy darkness in the middle, that's about right.
Trust your own test results. Pool $tores are ALL over the place in terms of results. I tried five of them with the same water. Bizarre, but that's a big part of why TFPC works so much better. After you've tested a few times and checked your technique against the standards, you're better than any pool $tore.
Caco can walk you through it without draining, and his plan is good. But in my humble opinion, because of the copper, and if you're comfortable draining, do it. Start fresh with TFPC methods and your CYA will be precise out of the gate. It's just a weight and volume calculation. You can get the volume off your water meter (maybe you already have that) and use PoolMath which is highly reliable. If you give us the quantity of Tropiclear, we can calculate how much copper you added, but reality is that it's best to never add copper, ever. Everything can be done with chlorine, including mustard and black algae.
Did you use Start-up Tec? It's a metal sequestrant used to protect plaster from metal stains and will protect your grout the same way. If the pool is fairly new, there may be enough protection still happening from the start-up tec, and if not, you may be seeing some darkening on your grout.
This is a great thread and it's impressive how much you two have gotten through already. Well done!
Finally to be on the safe side, I wouldn't be using the heater until you're happy with the water. I'm guessing you already thought of that!
Oh yes neesajet I have been pool schooled by Caco!!
OHHH That copper and pool shop I used a full 2.5 L of the below picture which 19g/L of copper:
I will need to go through my waterproofing data but the rep I went through knew it was for my pool. I haven't had any discoloration as yet so hopefully it is ok. Will the copper eventually dissolve and how long will it take? Its a big call to make to refill the pool in its entirety.
I have been playing with my pump today a bit too. I included an extract below I will read up on pumps in the pump section but it has been running on medium the whole time and I just put it to Eco as I have a fairly size small pool 20,720 L. Do you think that's enough flow and circulation for my pool?
The top of my pump is around water level and 1 .5 away from the pool on the same side as the returns.
OHHH That copper and pool shop
I used a full 2.5 L of the below picture which 19g/L of copper:
I will need to go through my waterproofing data but the rep I went through knew it was for my pool. I haven't had any discoloration as yet so hopefully it is ok. Will the copper eventually dissolve and how long will it take? Its a big call to make to refill the pool in its entirety.
I have been playing with my pump today a bit too. I included an extract below I will read up on pumps in the pump section but it has been running on medium the whole time and I just put it to Eco as I have a fairly size small pool 20,720 L. Do you think that's enough flow and circulation for my pool?
The top of my pump is around water level and 1 .5 away from the pool on the same side as the returns.
Oh man, bugger :-(
Now my chemistry aint that hot, so would someone please check the math
19g/l x 2.5l = 47.5 grams of copper
Diluted into 20724 l of water = 0.0023g per litre or just over 2ppm of copper
From my basic understanding of copper in the water it can cause brown stains at levels above 0.5ppm. Preferably you want levels of less than 0.2ppm
Generally, there is no practical way to remove iron or copper from the water short of replacing the water with new water that doesn't have any copper in it. The copper will have already dissolved in the water and can only be really removed by replacing the water. I'm really sorry if my maths is correct and really mad at the people who sold you this product
:grrrr: 
I cant really help on the pump details. All I ever did with mine was check I had good water movement by throwing some ping pong balls in the water and made sure they moved over the whole pool. It was a nice couple of hours in the evening actually, with a adult beverage in hand
Then I just dropped my run time back an hour every couple of days, until I noticed the water look a bit off, had lost its sparkle. Then I ramped it up one hour from there and it seems to work great.OMG I hope i didnt steam roll you too much with data overload!! We have covered so much today. I would not be surprised if your brain hurt or you feel like your
Personally I think you rocked tonight buba, I :blah::blah::blah: in your ear, but you listened and then you went out and did. Awesome job mate
- - - Updated - - -
Oh and Needs, awesome post, thanks. Hope you had a geat xmas dude
- Jan 4, 2016
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I agree draining is to be avoided, and like I say, if you're comfortable with it. The pool looks fairly new, you mentioned you built it, and the hydrostatic valve is newish, so it seems low risk, but only you can make the call. The volume is low(ish) so I was also thinking the drain/refill is fairly fast. There are a couple of methods that reduce risk ("fill deep, drain high" and "tarp") but they add complexity.
Copper stays in the water other than exiting by water removal, which takes bit with it each time that happens. Metals can be sequestered (caught by a molecule that attracts it) and held in solution in a non-harmful form. That is, it won't combine with the chemicals in the grout which is what a metal stain is. Sequestrants wear out and need to be maintained, but that's not a difficult thing to achieve, just another cost and something to think about. The initial dose of start-up tec the pool plasterers use is enough to protect against the minor amounts in city water, and normally all that's ever needed. Your level from that jug is around 2.3 ppm Cu in your water (minus some going out for backwashes). Staining can start above 0.3 ppm Cu. Most here I believe would treat that with sequestrants at a minimum.
I'm over my pay grade on metals, so i'll make sure someone reviews what I've said. Did you use Start-up Tec sequestrant when it was filled? And if so, when was that?
Pump run time depends on a few things. Minimum run time is really about how much of the day you want it free of surface debris. Ideal run time and RPM will be when you never see any algae spots form, meaning that your circulation is good. Playing with the eyeballs also helps with that. Your SWC puts out enough that you can replace a daily loss of 2.5 ppm FC in 2 hours, so that won't define your pump run time, although it will be a minimum as well. No one can tell you for sure what will work, so just start with more than you think and dial it down over time. I run mine 8 hrs per day on low, except I need medium for good skimming on a windy day, or for my suction cleaner. I use high for 30 mins right after adding chems. Here's a helpful link...
Pool School - Determine Pump Run Time
Copper stays in the water other than exiting by water removal, which takes bit with it each time that happens. Metals can be sequestered (caught by a molecule that attracts it) and held in solution in a non-harmful form. That is, it won't combine with the chemicals in the grout which is what a metal stain is. Sequestrants wear out and need to be maintained, but that's not a difficult thing to achieve, just another cost and something to think about. The initial dose of start-up tec the pool plasterers use is enough to protect against the minor amounts in city water, and normally all that's ever needed. Your level from that jug is around 2.3 ppm Cu in your water (minus some going out for backwashes). Staining can start above 0.3 ppm Cu. Most here I believe would treat that with sequestrants at a minimum.
I'm over my pay grade on metals, so i'll make sure someone reviews what I've said. Did you use Start-up Tec sequestrant when it was filled? And if so, when was that?
Pump run time depends on a few things. Minimum run time is really about how much of the day you want it free of surface debris. Ideal run time and RPM will be when you never see any algae spots form, meaning that your circulation is good. Playing with the eyeballs also helps with that. Your SWC puts out enough that you can replace a daily loss of 2.5 ppm FC in 2 hours, so that won't define your pump run time, although it will be a minimum as well. No one can tell you for sure what will work, so just start with more than you think and dial it down over time. I run mine 8 hrs per day on low, except I need medium for good skimming on a windy day, or for my suction cleaner. I use high for 30 mins right after adding chems. Here's a helpful link...
Pool School - Determine Pump Run Time
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Writing at the same time!! Hey Merry Christmas to you too, Caco and yep gotta love summer and swimming !! Awesome work on this thread by the way!
!! Awesome work on this thread by the way!Hi needsajet..you started your last post with " i agree draining is to be avoided" are u saying not to drain the pool?
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- Jan 4, 2016
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Sorry, I wasn't very clear there, mate! I meant that in general, draining is to be avoided, yes. Better to fix the water when possible/practical.
In your case, if you're comfortable with draining, I think it's a practical approach, (and maybe the lowest cost and/or easiest) due to the high Cu and CYA.
In your case, if you're comfortable with draining, I think it's a practical approach, (and maybe the lowest cost and/or easiest) due to the high Cu and CYA.
No I think he is saying that draining is not without risk, but in your case it is low.
Normal process is to recover the water that is in the pool, draining is not our first option generally
At least I think this is what Needs is saying, can you please clarify what you would do Needsajet?
My theory is you have a small amount of water to change so can do so quickly.
You seems to have high CYA 90+, makes it harder to slam and maintain pool long term
You have high copper, you will have to manage this long term to prevent staining
Cost to replace pool water approx $50
You have algae and need to slam. By lowering CYA as well you will probably save $50 on chlorine anyway from slamming at a lower level
High FC will eat through any sequestrate and possibly accelerate staining
Low to no risk of pool damage is carried out in cool of evening/night. Pool built on bedrock and has hydrostatic valve too
This is my reasoning as to why a drain and refill. However at the end of the day its your call to make Buba
Thanks Needs, we gotta try to stop talking at the same time, lol
I'll fix it by going to bed, cu later
Normal process is to recover the water that is in the pool, draining is not our first option generally
At least I think this is what Needs is saying, can you please clarify what you would do Needsajet?
My theory is you have a small amount of water to change so can do so quickly.
You seems to have high CYA 90+, makes it harder to slam and maintain pool long term
You have high copper, you will have to manage this long term to prevent staining
Cost to replace pool water approx $50
You have algae and need to slam. By lowering CYA as well you will probably save $50 on chlorine anyway from slamming at a lower level
High FC will eat through any sequestrate and possibly accelerate staining
Low to no risk of pool damage is carried out in cool of evening/night. Pool built on bedrock and has hydrostatic valve too
This is my reasoning as to why a drain and refill. However at the end of the day its your call to make Buba
Thanks Needs, we gotta try to stop talking at the same time, lol
I'll fix it by going to bed, cu later
- Jan 4, 2016
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Just stepping in to say HI and I LOVE your pool!
Caco and Needs has you WELL covered! Good job you two (again!)
With the copper and high CYA I would drain as much of the water as you feel comfortable doing without doing any damage to it. That is the only real way to get that stuff out You can also do a couple of drains to get most of it out as you do need some CYA but the copper is what worries me.
You have found TFP now and have a good test kit. PLEASE trust YOUR test results. Trying to compare to the Pool $tore will do more harm than good.
I have a set of links to share with you. Some of them you will have seen but I don't want to take a chance of leaving anything out. They are for when you get the copper out of the water:
Print these out:
Pool School - Basic Pool Care Schedule
Pool School - Recommended Levels
Bookmark these:
Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals
http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html
Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry
Keep asking questions no matte how small. We have all been there! I will tell you my story after you get your water sorted out.
Kim
Caco and Needs has you WELL covered! Good job you two (again!)
With the copper and high CYA I would drain as much of the water as you feel comfortable doing without doing any damage to it. That is the only real way to get that stuff out
You can also do a couple of drains to get most of it out as you do need some CYA but the copper is what worries me.You have found TFP now and have a good test kit. PLEASE trust YOUR test results. Trying to compare to the Pool $tore will do more harm than good.
I have a set of links to share with you. Some of them you will have seen but I don't want to take a chance of leaving anything out. They are for when you get the copper out of the water:
Print these out:
Pool School - Basic Pool Care Schedule
Pool School - Recommended Levels
Bookmark these:
Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals
http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html
Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry
Keep asking questions no matte how small. We have all been there! I will tell you my story after you get your water sorted out.
Kim
- Jun 22, 2014
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buballodingo, it looks like Caco has been guiding you quite a bit on this thread and with some solid advice. The only thing I might add to your scenario is this .... keep it simple. Now that you have the ability to test water on your own, you are on your way to better pool care. 
You appear to have copper in the water due to pool store product additions, and a copper level of 0.3 tends to cause problems (i.e. staining). You also know your CYA and CH are elevated. We know the only way to lower CYA and CH is a water exchange. By doing so you'll also remove some copper that was introduced from the algaecide. As Caco mentioned earlier, the lower CYA will also make a SLAM much more manageable. So before you waste anymore chemicals, I would certainly advise a partial water exchange to remove some copper and lower CYA/CH. Now that you are following TFP guidance, you may never have to do a water exchange again. Great to have you with us, and thanks to Caco for helping you through the process.
You appear to have copper in the water due to pool store product additions, and a copper level of 0.3 tends to cause problems (i.e. staining). You also know your CYA and CH are elevated. We know the only way to lower CYA and CH is a water exchange. By doing so you'll also remove some copper that was introduced from the algaecide. As Caco mentioned earlier, the lower CYA will also make a SLAM much more manageable. So before you waste anymore chemicals, I would certainly advise a partial water exchange to remove some copper and lower CYA/CH. Now that you are following TFP guidance, you may never have to do a water exchange again. Great to have you with us, and thanks to Caco for helping you through the process. 
Yep, nice work here gents. As needsajet says copper will stay in the water forever and stain your grout, blond hair, white dogs, fingernails, swimsuits, etc. Given the low volume and hydro valve I would be inclined to drain the whole pool and start over to get rid of all the copper. 0.2 to 0.3 ppm is the threshold for staining to begin.
Thanks gents appreciate all the guidance. Im not worried about my hair going blong as i dont have any ?. I will drain later today as im helping the old man at his house today. To re establish the pool. Do i use the pool calculator and put zeros in the now column and my new target levels to work out what chlorine and salt i need upfront?
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If im draining the pool...do i need to slam? Chlorine has been high a few days now...i know no OCLT was performed but i thought if its new water it would be ok
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You need to run the tests (except the CYA as it has to be added) on your fill water. Tell us the results and we will go from there.
Since you are starting with new water there will be no need to SLAM.
Do you see anything on the tiles that have you worried? Take a picture of it and we can let you know what we think it is.
IF you want to you can spray bleach on the walls and rinse it off and out. This is a "it makes me happy" kind of thing.
Kim
Since you are starting with new water there will be no need to SLAM.
Do you see anything on the tiles that have you worried? Take a picture of it and we can let you know what we think it is.
IF you want to you can spray bleach on the walls and rinse it off and out. This is a "it makes me happy" kind of thing.
Kim
Good morning all
Thanks for all the kind words from the mods
Buba the first thing to do is stay :calm:
Lets do a quick summary and make up a plan of next steps
We know you have to drain and refill the pool to prevent staining
We know you have good water on town supply to refill with
I would suggest a full drain to remove as much copper as possible
Are you comfortable with doing that?
Mods, a question? Would metals (copper) be caught in his filter? Would a deep clean be useful prior to his new startup?
Buba, since you are planning on draining later today, I would just leave your swg off for now
Then once we have done the full drain refill process I think you may have to finish off with a short slam
Shopping list
I would get some bleach aka liquid chlorine
maybe a 5 litre of 12.5% from bunnings? Dont think you would need all of the 12.5 litre container but couldnt hurt if close in price
While you are there also get hydrochloric acid (to lower ph)
Get some CYA
Also some calcium
Review what you have in the shed, you may already have some of this
- - - Updated - - -
Hi Kim
I was thinking after drain and refill to do a mini slam and run an OCLT just to check all the algae is gone
Do you think this is overkill?
Thanks for all the kind words from the mods
Buba the first thing to do is stay :calm:
Lets do a quick summary and make up a plan of next steps
We know you have to drain and refill the pool to prevent staining
We know you have good water on town supply to refill with
I would suggest a full drain to remove as much copper as possible
Are you comfortable with doing that?
Mods, a question? Would metals (copper) be caught in his filter? Would a deep clean be useful prior to his new startup?
Buba, since you are planning on draining later today, I would just leave your swg off for now
Then once we have done the full drain refill process I think you may have to finish off with a short slam
Shopping list
I would get some bleach aka liquid chlorine
maybe a 5 litre of 12.5% from bunnings? Dont think you would need all of the 12.5 litre container but couldnt hurt if close in price
While you are there also get hydrochloric acid (to lower ph)
Get some CYA
Also some calcium
Review what you have in the shed, you may already have some of this
- - - Updated - - -
Hi Kim
I was thinking after drain and refill to do a mini slam and run an OCLT just to check all the algae is gone
Do you think this is overkill?
- Jan 4, 2016
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
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Thanks for the nice comments and TFP teamwork!
Regarding your "Now 0" "Target X" question about PoolMath, the answer is "yep, you've got it!" for things like FC and CYA, but others depend on what's already in the fill water, hence why Kim mentions to test the fill water. A big one would be TA, which won't be near zero. Another is pH, which will likely be around 8.0
How old/new is the pool by the way? When was it first filled?
Regarding your "Now 0" "Target X" question about PoolMath, the answer is "yep, you've got it!" for things like FC and CYA, but others depend on what's already in the fill water, hence why Kim mentions to test the fill water. A big one would be TA, which won't be near zero. Another is pH, which will likely be around 8.0
How old/new is the pool by the way? When was it first filled?