New User - Doing first drain - What do I need to know?

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Dichlor is literally the WORST possible source of chlorine for regular use. It adds as much CYA as it does chlorine, 100 lbs a season has raised your CYA by 225 every year! Your CYA has been out of control since half way though your first season but you have gotten lucky and the algae has stayed at bay. Now that you have it though you have no way to get your FC high enough to fight it. Even if your FC is at 30 it is too buffered to kill algae faster than it grows. The only thing a pool store could do to help really is some sodium bromide algae killer that will turn your pool in to a bromine pool. It would probably clear it up but would create so many problems to come that it really isn't worth it. Getting your CYA down and not using dichlor any more might take longer to get done but it is going to fix the problem, not just replace it with a dozen other problems.

Your story is not unique, this happens all the time. People get by with overstabilized pools mostly due to luck, then one day the pool is green and they are usually half a grand in the hole to the pool store before they find us. It is usually a shock to find out they have been paying for the privilege of making the situation worse, but sadly that is often the case. If you want to get it fixed once and for all and keep it crystal clear permanently, it is going to take more fresh water. If you won't do that, not a lot left we can do.
 
I hope I am not coming across as arguing with anyone. I get what you are saying, and agree with all the comments. I now get it all, and apparently have been lucky with high levels for the past years. i wouldn't mind the drain and refill if I could do it all at once. But, if my levels were in the 900's when this started, which it may have been, I would need to do 5 50% drains to get it down to 60. That is 2.5 times the amount of water in my pool. Getting it all out and filling once makes more sense. If I can't do that on my own without damage, then maybe I should have pros come out and do it.

But, now that I have learned the horror of my DiChlor feeder, I asked the question on the pool treatment forum about a good replacement for DiChlor. I also found a few threads on the subject from a few years ago. Everyone said no suitable replacement, other than getting a new Chlorinator. Many suggest SWG.

So, I went to the SWG thread, hoping a find a sticky on the pros/cons of switching over. Like what equipment would need to be replaced, the cost of maintaining a SWG verses the cost of Chlorine, if it makes sense for someone who only has a pool open 4 months a year, etc. Is there a thread or sticky you experts can point me too? Or, should I just ask some of these questions in the SWG forum. If the maintanence of a SWG works out to about $50 a year, verses $250 a year for chlorine, it pays for itself in just a few years.
 
I can't tell from the picture, do you have a liner or plaster finish? If it is plaster and you are positive your groundwater level is lower than the pool then you can potentially drain it most of the way without issue. I would consider getting water brought in so you aren't waiting a few days to get it refilled from your hose though.

If you do have a liner then you risk getting some really ugly and annoying wrinkles in the shallow end if you drain below it. If there is a company that is able to drain and refill a liner pool that can get it reset fine afterwards then it could be worth looking in to. Just don't let them add chemicals. If you end up draining 100% of the water you will need to put some CYA back in the water, in that case you can potentially use your leftover dichlor to bring it up to range, then put it away for a rainy day.

The best options for automated chlorine delivery is SWG or a stenner pump with a liquid chlorine reserve. If you have specific questions regarding installing an SWG that aren't related to this whole situation then feel free to start a thread in that section so more SWG experts and owners can help you research your options.
 
Smartjack said:
Hi Pat,

i followed your directions last night, and diluted by half, and still got a reading over 100. The only thing I did not do was outside in the sun, because I did this inside at 9PM. That is why I was wondering if there was a test method that did not involve "seeing the dot" where lighting could make all the difference. I know how test strips are used here, and they are not that accurate, put they read CYA by a color change on the strip. That is why I was wondering if there was an accurate liquid test kit method that involved a color change.
Click to expand...

I would do another test with more tap water (distilled even better) but go for 4:1 or even 10:1 dilution to get a better idea of the actual level. The problem with CYA is it's such a subjective test and high levels really only tell you it's high without any real accuracy. Using a 10:1 solution, if it comes out at 20, you know your CYA is around 200.

Right now all you know is it's "over 200". Could still be 400+:(
 
chawkins99 said:
I would do another test with more tap water (distilled even better) but go for 4:1 or even 10:1 dilution to get a better idea of the actual level. The problem with CYA is it's such a subjective test and high levels really only tell you it's high without any real accuracy. Using a 10:1 solution, if it comes out at 20, you know your CYA is around 200.

Right now all you know is it's "over 200". Could still be 400+:(
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It's been generally decided that if the 2:1 test shows over 200 then there is no reason to go further. Greater dilution will only increase the error of an already subjective test and the answer is largely the same whether it is 300 or 3000: near total replacement. It is easier to add more CYA if you overshoot than to try a 10:1 test that, if everything is perfect, has an error ratio of +/- 150 ppm.
 
chawkins99 said:
I would do another test with more tap water (distilled even better) but go for 4:1 or even 10:1 dilution to get a better idea of the actual level. The problem with CYA is it's such a subjective test and high levels really only tell you it's high without any real accuracy. Using a 10:1 solution, if it comes out at 20, you know your CYA is around 200.

Right now all you know is it's "over 200". Could still be 400+:(
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

i was was thinking the same thing at lunch. Before reading this, I was already planning on doing a 10:1 solution and see what I got. Just for fun, I was also going to do a test on plain tap water, to make sure I can get a 0 reading on that.
 
Donldson said:
I can't tell from the picture, do you have a liner or plaster finish? If it is plaster and you are positive your groundwater level is lower than the pool then you can potentially drain it most of the way without issue. I would consider getting water brought in so you aren't waiting a few days to get it refilled from your hose though.
Click to expand...

It is a liner pool. I guess wrinkles would be my biggest issue if I went dry there. That is why I was thinking about putting weights down to keep it in place, but it may not help much. Filling was not that bad. I finished the drain yesterday around 2:00 (left work early because it was still draining, and it would have gotten too low if I didn't), and it was filled by 10PM last night.
 
Smartjack, I am impressed with how you are handling this info as I'm sure the whole ordeal is a bit of a shocker and exhausting. The water exchange process is generally not quick, and in almost all cases owners tip-toe about how much to drain out of concern for their investment. A major drain is not possible for most pool owners, so they do what they can, one step at a time. So at the end of the day, after careful thinking, I would simply suggest ... one step at a time, one day at a time. The pool is not going anywhere. I know you have a timeline concern for your wife to enjoy the water before any procedures, but with a day or two of work and careful water exchange you might be surprised. As for future chlorination, weather you do it manually every day by adding a 1/2-gallon of bleach each day, or invest in an SWG later, you'll find it will all work out fine. Hang in there SJ, and we'll be here to try and guide you.
 
Well, I think I finally have a CYA level measurement I can be confident in.

I did a 6x dilution, then measured with my K-2006 kit. Got a level of 35, which would work out to a level of 210. I also tested that diluted water with the test strips I had, and the color was definetly in the 30-50 color range of the strip. Since some have said diluting that much is not as accurate, I then did a 4x dilution. That got me a 50 reading, which works out to 200, getting close to the first reading.

So, I am now on my third drain. If this is about a 40% replacement, that should get me down to around 120. Still high. If I hit that Mark, I'll decide is 3 drains is enough for my wallet, or to do 1 more drain. That 4th drain would get me around 70.

Thanks for all the help. Now, I just need to decide what to use in place of the DiChlor this year. I have a few ideas, but that is another thread.
 
You are on your way to becoming a fully-certified chemist .... or at least a TFP-certified mad scientist. :p Nice work. Each steps brings you closer. 200 sounds a LOT better than 400! Keep-up the great work. After the CYA battle, the rest will seem like a cake-walk. As for chlorination after the CYA, you can always rely on simple regular (generic) bleach until you make long-range plans. That's the nice thing about bleach ... it's everywhere you go and usually at a decent price. Have a nice evening, and we'll watch for your next CYA update.
 

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Keep in mind when you are draining say 25% then refilling and draining another 25%, it does not equal a 50% reduction in CYA. I've read the specifics as to why before, but after a long day, I can't think of a good way to explain it, ha ha. Let me look for the old post I read last year......

Found one!

From this thread
CYA out of control...among other things

Originally Posted by Vyrolan
So I can get trucks of ~6000 gallons for $300... So for $900 I could replace roughly half the water...that would probably help me a lot with CH in addition to obviously with CYA. Maybe do that and then let the over-the-winter CYA reduction and closing/opening water replacement make it completely right for next season... Hmm...really need to get a reasonable grasp on what the CYA level really is...must dilute further tonight!
If you are going to go this route, do it all at once - Drain the pool half way then add the three trucks of water. If you do it in 3 separate operations it will not give you the 50% reduction, but a smaller % (if my math is right, with your pool each truck load would be a 16% reduction.

So, if we say your CYA is 400 for arguments sake,

3 truck loads done at once will drop you to 200

Truck loads done separately will yield you the following
Truck 1 Start 400 less 64 (16%) 336
Truck 2 Start 336 less 53 (16%) 283
Truck 3 Start 283 less 45 (16%) 238
Truck 4 Start 238 less 38 (16%) 200

Someone check my math, but it would appear to get 50% separately you need 4 trucks.

Please remember, high water tables and some other conditions may preclude you from draining too much from the pool.
 
Good morning, smart jack.

For water replacement, there is a method a rare few have performed here in vinyl liner situations called "the sheet method."

What you do is buy a big box of visqueen and tape it together to be larger than pool, accounting for depth on all sides.

You lay the sheet on top of the water and loosely anchor edges, leaving slack for depth. Fill and drain simultaneously.

The sheet keeps the new, good water separate, and allows you to keep your level up. Once you're down to the bottom or close to it, you pull the sheet out.

I haven't done this, but did witness a thread where someone did and for him it worked like a charm so I wanted to mention it as an option ;)

Re: SWG, I'm in West Michigan, and just switched to SWG. When researching here, I've found that a lot of people who are seasonal get extensive life out of a cell...eg 7-10 years -- especially when they follow the TFP recc to buy the largest cell possible, eg the T15 (aquarite) for 40,000 gallons. Cells produce a certain amount of chlorine gas over lifetime so buying oversize is super economical and ensures a cell can produce enough in higher use (mid summer, lots of swimmer) conditions. None of them would trade it for any other method.

In our climate, it won't produce chlorine in cold water, eg 50, so unless you heat your pool in shoulder seasons (I do, from may to mid Oct) you might have a month on either end where you still have need to manually chlorinate. Its best to get the level up anyway, then run swg to maintain.

From my reading (and now implementing) the key to trouble free swg is to run cya at 70-80 per TFP recommendations, and dial in pump/run time to ensure 5% of the CYA is maintained at all times. At that point, its pretty "set it & forget it", so long as you test periodically, control ph, and periodically replace salt diluted by backwash or splash out, clean the cell once a season, etc.
 
I LOVE that "sheet method" idea. I wish I would have heard of that a week ago, 1 fill and I would have been done.....

edit-

I found the supplies that will let me do the cover method at Home Depot for $70. So, I am trying this tomorrow. I will take pictures, so it will be documented if it works. I'm still at a CYA of 200. If I am doing a 40% drain (my guess of water volume to just short of shallow), I would need to do 3 more drains (I've already done 2) to get my CYA to the 40's. If this works, I'll be 1 more drain, and done.
 
Thinking about this method, I may modify it a little bit. I think this method would work best for a fiberglass or concrete pool. Without modification, the plastic cover could "pull down" the liner, instead of just lowering with the water line. So, I have a few ideas on how to make this work with a liner pool.
 
Tarp is on. I stopped pumping for the night, because I want to monitor things closer when the shallow end drains. Too dark for pictures tonight, I'll take some tomorrow before I start.

I'm not sure the tarp will be big enough to allow a 100% drain. But, I only need a 80% drain to get my CYA to 40.
 
I love that you're trying the tarp! If the tarp will be rubbing any edges that are rough you may want to add some masking tape or something that will come up easy to give it a smoother ride. A rip would seem like a horrid setback.

Swampwoman - thanks for finding that thread, it was awesome to see those pictures!!!

Even though it was said before, don't trust pool store results after you get your k-2006. Follow the http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/213-extended-test-kit-directions
and no pool store on earth could give you any more accurate test results that you can get yourself. If you do have to return to the pool store in case they have something cheaper/closer than anyone else that TFP says you need, then you might as well bring a sample for them to test. You should of course test water right after you remove it from the pool, to get the best results, but at least then you could compare your real results to their 1 hr old water results done in their own money making way and see how off they are:)

If you truly can't find a good source for bleach / liquid shock, (many walmarts now carry the 10% 128oz shock in the garden/pool center for only $2.50) you might want to check Costco. It looked from their website like they deliver the 3 pack of Clorox for the same price it is in store. Haven't tried it, but it was my tentative backup plan if I hadn't found something local.
 
My wife feels this is totally unessesary, and I just don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on the right chemicals to fix this. But, she is letting me do what I want. However, if I damage the pool, or the liner, I'm a dead man. So, if you don't hear an update from me in a few days, please call the Naperville police.
 

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