Getting ready for O/B Bicarbonate Startup

[JamieP]

My plaster (Stonescapes Tropics Blue Mini Pebble) might happen as early as next Monday and I need to get myself ready for the Bicarbonate Startup that I want to do, for whenever it does occur. Once I'm scheduled, the pebble will be applied the first day, then acid washed the next day, after which I will begin filling with water while testing and to adjust the PH and TA.

In my build thread I had been given helpful advice on how to do this, but I want to make sure I understand everything properly. These are the numbers for my fill water:
FC= 2.0
CC= 0.5
PH = 7.3
TA = 140
CH = 180

Based on what I was told, I plan on predetermining the fill rate using a large container, and then testing and adjusting PH and TA at set intervals. I anticipate the fill taking a very long time. How long can I go between each test/addition? Do I need to stay up all night to keep up these intervals?

Also, and this is basic, but do I use Muriatic Acid to bring PH down and Baking Soda to raise TA? I was told I probably won't need a lot of acid initially because I want to keep the PH high, but I will need to add a lot of baking soda (diluted first in a 5 gallon bucket) which is the point of a bicarbonate startup.

Do I have the gist of this right? Please set me straight if I'm off, and once I get past these questions, I'll keep reading and get ready with some more. Thank you for your help!

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi Jamie,
Im sure a lot of eyes will be on this thread.
I cant help you with the startup as Ive never done one.

Im sure that OnBalance and / or Brian or maybe Richard will be chiming in though.

In the meantime, below is a link to OnBalance website is some info on it for the start up that probably is a bit more in depth than what was on your thread.

Website
OnBalance


Startup Article
http://poolhelp.com/handouts/oB_Bicarb%20Startup%20Method%20Handout.pdf

happy reading and good luck!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Yes, muriatic acid is to lower pH.

Yes, baking soda raises TA with only a small increase in pH.

Are you going to add CH with calcium chloride or just skip that? Your CH may increase a bit upon fill so I'm not sure extra CH will be needed.

In the beginning, try to time for every 1000 gallons or so. Don't stay up all night. Just stay up as late as you like, make one final adjustment and call it quits. Your plaster is not going to peel off the gunite while you sleep. Wake up in the AM (I'm sure the kids will have no problem waking up mom) and test and adjust as needed.

Remember - you're mixing up pool water, not rocket fuel!!

Good luck but I know you've got this!!

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

 

[JamieP]

Hi Jamie,
Im sure a lot of eyes will be on this thread.
I cant help you with the startup as Ive never done one.

Im sure that OnBalance and / or Brian or maybe Richard will be chiming in though.

In the meantime, below is a link to OnBalance website is some info on it for the start up that probably is a bit more in depth than what was on your thread.

Website
OnBalance


Startup Article
http://poolhelp.com/handouts/oB_Bicarb%20Startup%20Method%20Handout.pdf

happy reading and good luck!

Thanks, Dave. I just skimmed those links and They are a big help. I just need to let it all sink in!

Yes, muriatic acid is to lower pH.

Yes, baking soda raises TA with only a small increase in pH.

Are you going to add CH with calcium chloride or just skip that? Your CH may increase a bit upon fill so I'm not sure extra CH will be needed.

In the beginning, try to time for every 1000 gallons or so. Don't stay up all night. Just stay up as late as you like, make one final adjustment and call it quits. Your plaster is not going to peel off the gunite while you sleep. Wake up in the AM (I'm sure the kids will have no problem waking up mom) and test and adjust as needed.

Remember - you're mixing up pool water, not rocket fuel!!

Good luck but I know you've got this!!

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

I'm not sure about adding calcium chloride for the CH. I think in the discussion on my build thread it was decided I did need to worry about it, but I could be wrong and am willing to accept new guidance.

Glad to hear I don't have to stay up all night to do this! I wish I had a solid number for my pool volume and I'd go the huge container route with hoses coming from it the way OnBalance describes. It sounds like after the initial setup it would take care of itself until the pool was filled. I wonder if it's worth working harder to figure the volume out, or is the method I described above simple enough?

I appreciate your confidence in me, Matt. Now I just need to feel it myself!

 

[bdavis466]

Hi Jamie,

I figure your pool to be around 26,000 gallons (based on the dimensions in your pool build thread). With that said, I'd suggest having 4 gallons of acid, 75 pounds of sodium bicarbonate, and a small container of tricolor pucks.

Once the pool starts filling, grab a sample and check the pH and TA. There is no need to check anything else. Using pool math, enter the approximate gallonage at that time, target a pH of 7.8- 8.0 and a TA of 275. Add acid (if needed) to lower the pH. There is no reason to go any lower than 7.8; it would be counter-productive to do so. Dilute the baking soda in a 5 gallon bucket that will take the current pool volume to 275 (TA) and add it to the pool water. Use a brush to mix the slurry in and make sure the bicarb doesn't sit on the surface. Continue this process every 1000-5000 gallons or so. The more often you test and add the bicarb, the less of a challenge you will have at the end getting your numbers balanced.

The whole purpose of this is to maintain a CSI in the +0.3- +0.5 range for the first 3 weeks. If at all possible, do not let the pH rise above 8. Doing so will greatly increase the chance of scale if these conditions are not promptly corrected.

Two days after the acid wash, add 3 tricolor pucks to a floater (one for every 10,000 gallons) and replace them as they dissolve. The pucks will give you a huge advantage in that chlorine and CYA will be slowly added to the water and will require little, if any testing. For the first 3 weeks you will really only need to test pH and TA daily (pH most importantly). As the TA level drops, add more baking soda to maintain 250 (or more importantly a CSI of+0.3- +0.5).

After about the 3rd week, target a pH of 7.2-7.4 and discontinue any bicarb additions. Doing so will lower the TA slowly, there is no need to aggressively attempt to lower the TA, it will come down on its own (with maintaining a lower pH value).

Keep in mind that pH has the greatest influence on CSI and should be given the most attention. TA, CH, salt, CYA and water temperature also effect the CSI to some extent , so be certain to enter those numbers into Pool Math when doing your calculations. I've based all of the calculations off a projected 65 degree water temperature so there will be some variance if yours ends up being much warmer or colder.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't care for the barrel method. It works well for a plaster contractor so that they don't need to babysit the pool fill all day but on your own pool, this shouldn't be the case. The barrel method relies too much on projection whereas frequent testing can be a lot more accurate. The downside to my method is that it is a little more labor intensive and uses up some of the reagents... The choice is yours.

Hold off on adding calcium for the first month. Your CH is fine right now. Lets see where you end up in a month and then we can see where you need to go.

 

[bdavis466]

As a disclaimer to anyone else that reads this thread, the target numbers provided were based off her fill water numbers and do not apply to every pool. Do not use them as a template for your own pool without first checking your own fill water and making a determination of where you will ultimately need to end up during the startup process.

The bicarb startup does have the potential to damage the plaster if not done correctly and could very well void a plaster warranty if not addressed with the contractor/pool builder prior to the startup.

 

[Patrick_B]

I think potential damage from Acid starts is much more likely. Unfortunately, one problem is that most PBs don't know of, or understand BiCarb starts, and they (many) will blame any problems they can on poor chemistry no matter the cause.

 

[JamieP]

Hi Jamie,

I figure your pool to be around 26,000 gallons (based on the dimensions in your pool build thread). With that said, I'd suggest having 4 gallons of acid, 75 pounds of sodium bicarbonate, and a small container of tricolor pucks.

Once the pool starts filling, grab a sample and check the pH and TA. There is no need to check anything else. Using pool math, enter the approximate gallonage at that time, target a pH of 7.8- 8.0 and a TA of 275. Add acid (if needed) to lower the pH. There is no reason to go any lower than 7.8; it would be counter-productive to do so. Dilute the baking soda in a 5 gallon bucket that will take the current pool volume to 275 (TA) and add it to the pool water. Use a brush to mix the slurry in and make sure the bicarb doesn't sit on the surface. Continue this process every 1000-5000 gallons or so. The more often you test and add the bicarb, the less of a challenge you will have at the end getting your numbers balanced.

The whole purpose of this is to maintain a CSI in the +0.3- +0.5 range for the first 3 weeks. If at all possible, do not let the pH rise above 8. Doing so will greatly increase the chance of scale if these conditions are not promptly corrected.

Two days after the acid wash, add 3 tricolor pucks to a floater (one for every 10,000 gallons) and replace them as they dissolve. The pucks will give you a huge advantage in that chlorine and CYA will be slowly added to the water and will require little, if any testing. For the first 3 weeks you will really only need to test pH and TA daily (pH most importantly). As the TA level drops, add more baking soda to maintain 250 (or more importantly a CSI of+0.3- +0.5).

After about the 3rd week, target a pH of 7.2-7.4 and discontinue any bicarb additions. Doing so will lower the TA slowly, there is no need to aggressively attempt to lower the TA, it will come down on its own (with maintaining a lower pH value).

Keep in mind that pH has the greatest influence on CSI and should be given the most attention. TA, CH, salt, CYA and water temperature also effect the CSI to some extent , so be certain to enter those numbers into Pool Math when doing your calculations. I've based all of the calculations off a projected 65 degree water temperature so there will be some variance if yours ends up being much warmer or colder.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't care for the barrel method. It relies too much on projection whereas frequent testing can be a lot more accurate. The downside to my method is that it is a little more labor intensive and uses up some of the reagents... The choice is yours.

Hold off on adding calcium for the first month. Your CH is fine right now. Lets see where you end up in a month and then we can see where you need to go.

Thank you, Brian, for that very thorough rundown of what I need to do. I picked up some MA at Lowes today (~$13 for a box with 2 gallons, and I got 2 boxes), but was a little unsure of the trichlor tabs so I held off on those for now. Nothing actually said "trichlor" as part of the product name, but "trichlo-triaznetrione" was listed as the main ingredient in the Chlorox Adtove 99 3" tabs that I found. Is that what I'm looking for?

Also, you mentioned needing a small container of pucks, and the smallest I found was 5 lbs for $21.98. Not having bought this stuff before, I don't know if that's a decent price or not or if I should shop around, or perhaps buy a larger quantity.

On a practical note, to do this, I have to walk down into the pool to take samples and make chemical additions, right? Do I need to be extra careful and wear socks (not shoes) when I'm walking on the pebble? Also, am I supposed to test then add the necessary chemicals per pool math, and then not test again until the set time interval (between 1000-5000 gallons) has passed? Just making sure I don't need to test right away again after making the chemical addition.

Do I need to worry about metal sequesterants?

Finally, when do I turn the pump on? I assume once the water is to the middle of the skimmer (at which time I'd also turn off the fill water, right?)

I'm going to keep re-reading what you've told me and let it sink in. It seems pretty straightforward. But after your disclaimer, I sure don't want to mess it up!

 

[bdavis466]

Thank you, Brian, for that very thorough rundown of what I need to do. I picked up some MA at Lowes today (~$13 for a box with 2 gallons, and I got 2 boxes), but was a little unsure of the trichlor tabs so I held off on those for now. Nothing actually said "trichlor" as part of the product name, but "trichlo-triaznetrione" was listed as the main ingredient in the Chlorox Adtove 99 3" tabs that I found. Is that what I'm looking for?

Also, you mentioned needing a small container of pucks, and the smallest I found was 5 lbs for $21.98. Not having bought this stuff before, I don't know if that's a decent price or not or if I should shop around, or perhaps buy a larger quantity.

Those are the correct tablets. 5 pounds will probably get you through the first month. Buying a larger container wont hurt anything since the tablets don't really go bad and may be useful during the off season when you need to add chlorine and CYA to the pool. $4 per pound is on the high side, larger containers are probably closer to the 2-3 dollar/pound range.

On a practical note, to do this, I have to walk down into the pool to take samples and make chemical additions, right? Do I need to be extra careful and wear socks (not shoes) when I'm walking on the pebble? Also, am I supposed to test then add the necessary chemicals per pool math, and then not test again until the set time interval (between 1000-5000 gallons) has passed? Just making sure I don't need to test right away again after making the chemical addition.

Do I need to worry about metal sequesterants?

Finally, when do I turn the pump on? I assume once the water is to the middle of the skimmer (at which time I'd also turn off the fill water, right?)

I'm going to keep re-reading what you've told me and let it sink in. It seems pretty straightforward. But after your disclaimer, I sure don't want to mess it up!

Shoes or not would be fine... not really an issue after the acid wash. The plaster will already be very hard.

There is no need to test right away after your addition. You can trust the pool math calculator to be accurate. When you test the next sample, it will be easy to see if you over/underestimated the previous gallonage based on your current readings.

A Sequestrant is not needed unless you have a known metals problem with your fill water. I would think if it was an issue, you'd already be aware of it. With that said, sequestrants are good insurance and not all that expensive in case there are metal issues you are not aware of. Jack's Magic The Pink Stuff (regular), The Blue Stuff (fresh plaster), and The Purple Stuff (salt) are some of the top sequestrants. Startup-Tec is also a good choice if you can find it near you (and less expensive).

The pump can and should be turned on a soon as the water has reached the midpoint of the skimmer and be set to run 24/7 for at least the first week.

I'll send you a PM with my phone number. I'd be happy to walk you throught the process, I've done it for several others on this site. Its not all that complicated with a little guidance.

 

[Divin Dave]

No truer words ever spoken!

I think potential damage from Acid starts is much more likely. Unfortunately, one problem is that most PBs don't know of, or understand BiCarb starts, and they (many) will blame any problems they can on poor chemistry no matter the cause.

 

[JamieP]

Those are the correct tablets. 5 pounds will probably get you through the first month. Buying a larger container wont hurt anything since the tablets don't really go bad and may be useful during the off season when you need to add chlorine and CYA to the pool. $4 per pound is on the high side, larger containers are probably closer to the 2-3 dollar/pound range.




Shoes or not would be fine... not really an issue after the acid wash. The plaster will already be very hard.

There is no need to test right away after your addition. You can trust the pool math calculator to be accurate. When you test the next sample, it will be easy to see if you over/underestimated the previous gallonage based on your current readings.

A Sequestrant is not needed unless you have a known metals problem with your fill water. I would think if it was an issue, you'd already be aware of it. With that said, sequestrants are good insurance and not all that expensive in case there are metal issues you are not aware of. Jack's Magic The Pink Stuff (regular), The Blue Stuff (fresh plaster), and The Purple Stuff (salt) are some of the top sequestrants. Startup-Tec is also a good choice if you can find it near you (and less expensive).

The pump can and should be turned on a soon as the water has reached the midpoint of the skimmer and be set to run 24/7 for at least the first week.

I'll send you a PM with my phone number. I'd be happy to walk you throught the process, I've done it for several others on this site. Its not all that complicated with a little guidance.

Wow, thanks Brian! I got your PM and I'm sure I will be taking you up on your generous offer. Thank you, too, for all the additional information above. It's beginning to come together for me now.

 

[onBalance]

At first, I was uncomfortable about walking down the new pool to obtain water samples. But after learning that this is a pebble pool, it is probably okay. But I wouldn't wear any kind of shoes, and I suggest that you always have very dry socks on so as to not allow any moisture to come into contact with the plaster cement.

You are getting great advice from Brian.

 

[bdavis466]

At first, I was uncomfortable about walking down the new pool to obtain water samples. But after learning that this is a pebble pool, it is probably okay. But I wouldn't wear any kind of shoes, and I suggest that you always have very dry socks on so as to not allow any moisture to come into contact with the plaster cement.

You are getting great advice from Brian.

My thought on the shoes was that the acid wash was performed in rubber boots and does not cause any damage. Unless Jamie wears baseball cleats or 6" stilletos, I don't see how any damage could be done to the plaster. I've left a pair of soft slippers by the edge of the pool and thrown them on for the trip into the pool.

On a conventional plaster pool, I'd never recommend anyone to walk on the surface during the fill. You'd have to use some sort of a long handled ladle to get the sample. Pebble finished are a completely different animal.

 

[onBalance]

You make a good point Brian.
In fact, in thinking about this, I suggest NOT walking on the plaster surface with bare feet.

 

[kimkats]

Get a long piece of small pvc and use it like a straw.......Put in water, put finger over the hole, pull up and empty into bowl or pitcher.

Kim

 

[JamieP]

Thanks for all the tips. It's been a busy weekend, but I've been collecting the chemicals I will need and trying to get all of this information more settled in my mind. I decided to practice testing the TA and PH of my tap water again, this time involving the kids for fun, and was surprised to find I got different results from the last time. Because of this, (and because the kids were enjoying it) I ran the full tests again. I'm not sure what would have caused the change in results, because I'm pretty sure I did everything the same besides taking samples from the kitchen sink instead of the bathroom sink (both without filters.) I wouldn't put it past our water supplier to have changed something in their water treatment, but then again, it could have been tester error.

So here are my updated numbers, in case it matters...

FC = 2.5
CC = 1.5
PH = 7.6
TA = 110
CH = 175

(For reference, here are my original numbers:
FC= 2.0
CC= 0.5
PH = 7.3
TA = 140
CH = 180)

I know I will be testing the pool water once it begins filling and will use those results in Pool Math to figure out my chemical additions, so these are just to give me a baseline. I just found it interesting that they had changed and didn't know how much it mattered.

Also, my husband and son used two hose bibs to figure out the fill rate for the pool. (The third bib is just too far away to be very convenient to use, although if someone says it would be much preferable to use it as well we could go buy some longer hoses to make it work.) They used our 96 gallon garbage can on wheels and filled it up, which took 8 minutes. That works out to 12 gallons/min or approx. 83 minutes for each 1000 gallons of water.

So, on the more frequent end of the scale of testing, I could be out there testing and making adjustments every 1 1/4 hour! This should be fun!

 

[bdavis466]

All of your numbers are within the acceptable margin of error for testing except for the pH. It is not uncommon to see the pH fluctuate which is what you are likely experiencing. A pH of 7.6 also seems a lot more realistic coming from a water company, especially in relation to your higher TA.

The quicker you can fill the pool the better, so I'd try to get that other hose bib working. Your irrigation supply is often a good place to tie into since it is usually connected to the supply before the pressure reducer for your home.

Testing as often as you are suggesting is a little extreme. Shoot for every 2-3 hours. As mentioned before, you aren't making rocket fuel.

 

[Divin Dave]

Jamie,
are you testing with a speed stir or are you swirling the test tubes by hand?
Not that there is anything wrong with your two slightly different results. But if you're testing by switling, a speed stir might give you a bit more consistent accuracy.

 

[JamieP]

All of your numbers are within the acceptable margin of error for testing except for the pH. It is not uncommon to see the pH fluctuate which is what you are likely experiencing. A pH of 7.6 also seems a lot more realistic coming from a water company, especially in relation to your higher TA.

The quicker you can fill the pool the better, so I'd try to get that other hose bib working. Your irrigation supply is often a good place to tie into since it is usually connected to the supply before the pressure reducer for your home.

Testing as often as you are suggesting is a little extreme. Shoot for every 2-3 hours. As mentioned before, you aren't making rocket fuel.

Thanks Brian. My husband purchased a couple of long hoses so now we should be able to use the third hose bib. I'll have him calculate the new fill rate too.

Jamie,
are you testing with a speed stir or are you swirling the test tubes by hand?
Not that there is anything wrong with your two slightly different results. But if you're testing by switling, a speed stir might give you a bit more consistent accuracy.

Thanks, Dave. I was using the speed stir both times, but I did use a daylight lamp the second time (which might have helped with a more accurate pH reading.)

One new question... I bought a 35 lb bucket of pucks because it was the best "deal" per pound, but I'm wondering if that is total overkill and I should have just bought a lesser amount. I know these are helpful during startup, especially a bicarbonate startup, and I can use them to bring my CYA up gradually, but I don't know how much I will use to get to where I need it to run within SWG parameters. Even if these don't go bad, will I ever really need this many, or should I just return them and get a smaller bucket? Thanks!

 

[bdavis466]

They will be helpful when the water temperature falls below 60 degrees and the SWG quits working. They can also be used when you need to add a small amount of CYA but will not be very helpful to raise your CYA to the 60-80 ppm range you'll eventually need. You will need to use granular CYA for that.

It won't hurt anything to keep them but you will not likely go through the entire bucket for many years. A smaller one may be better for you in your situation.

Another option is to use liquid chlorine as Matt suggested but that will require more testing and daily additions of chlorine which may complicate things for you during the startup. The pucks really take a good chunk out of the workload.