Salt or Chlorine--info from builder has me scratching my head

4 years is about where things start to go bad. at least that's been the average when we start seeing folks coming here to get fixed up. But as Joyful said. As long as you understand the ins and outs and ups and downs of the different things you put in, it's up to what is considered "trouble free".
 
4 years is about where things start to go bad. at least that's been the average when we start seeing folks coming here to get fixed up. But as Joyful said. As long as you understand the ins and outs and ups and downs of the different things you put in, it's up to what is considered "trouble free".

That is good to know. I have seen some mathematical quotes here showing CYA to high after just one year. I guess evap, rain and refill must do a lot for it.
 
We have also talked to pool owners in the area that use pucks and haven't drained in 4 years they have been maintaining them in that way. They seem to be doing fine with that setup. At least one was also testing CYA and said they didn't have enough rise in that 4 years to be concerned with switching methods. I didn't ask him his measured values though.

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious - testing with what?

If they are relying on pool stores to test their CYA levels, then I would suggest that they actually have no idea what their CYA level is because that is the one test pool stores screw up the most. Also, pool stores typically say that that CYA levels between 80-150ppm are ok. At an FC of 2-3ppm (typical industry standard), a CYA of 50ppm or more is too high and results in water that is not properly sanitized.

This, ultimately, is the point. People need to test their own water and understand the FC/CYA relationship or else they are simply flying blind. Clear pool water does not equal sanitary pool water.


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I think it all boils down to education and monitoring. Those I met with that were not monitoring CYA could have issues down the road if they don't start. I can help now that I know and will have a good test kit soon.
 
The one I am mentioning uses the TF-100. They read this board and use a TF-100 but still use pucks based on their experience with them.

I am guessing we get just enough rain to keep it pretty well in check with minimal rise...
 
The one I am mentioning uses the TF-100. They read this board and use a TF-100 but still use pucks based on their experience with them.

I am guessing we get just enough rain to keep it pretty well in check with minimal rise...

Good to know. And, as I said to the OP (alliecat), you can use trichlor in your pool. You just have to be cognizant of what it is and what it will add to your water. The added expense of trichlor/dichlor comes down the road as build up of CYA can only be dealt with by draining and refills. If you have sufficient winter rains to allow for dilution, then you can use that to your advantage. But typically, at some point, rain dilution can not help and then you are left with draining.

For me and my pool (and my local water utility), water is an expensive commodity and I do what I do in my pool care to conserve it as much as possible.


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That is good to know. I have seen some mathematical quotes here showing CYA to high after just one year. I guess evap, rain and refill must do a lot for it.

Every 10ppm of FC added by trichlor, it also adds 6ppm CYA. So after adding 100ppm worth of FC from trichlor, your CYA will be 60ppm which about maximum for any non-SWG pool.

In a 20,000 gallon pool, 10ppm of trichlor is ~30oz. Each three inch trichlor puck weighs about 8oz. So 300oz of trichlor is ~ 38 pucks. On the hottest months here in Tucson, I've seen four 3" pucks dissolve in just under a week. Therefore, I'd go about about 10 weeks before the CYA got too high. The Tucson swimming season is a lot longer than 10 weeks and most pools are open and running all year.


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Thanks, Those are the calculations that have me thrown off. What other environmental or variables play a role besides evap and rain to make some go much longer without such a drastic rise? Consistency or makeup of the puck itself? 10 weeks vs years is what has me thrown off. What is happening to make some people be able to go years without the steep rise you describe?
 

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Thanks, Those are the calculations that have me thrown off. What other environmental or variables play a role besides evap and rain to make some go much longer without such a drastic rise? Consistency or makeup of the puck itself? 10 weeks vs years is what has me thrown off. What is happening to make some people be able to go years without the steep rise you describe?

Honestly speaking, I don't believe the assertion. Unless I see CYA test results from a reliable source (K-2006 or TF-100 test kit), then experience teaches that most folks have no idea how high their CYA levels are. If you read enough of the "HELP! My Pool Is Green" threads you will see a pattern emerge - the minute folks get their test kit and test CYA accurately for the first time, they come back and report a value of 100ppm. We then tell them that 100ppm is the limit of the test and they need to do a dilution test to see higher values. They finally get the dilution right and they report being floored that their stabilizer is >200ppm. It happens all the time.

So for those folks going years with tabs in the feeder, I'll give an explanation when they show me a real CYA level. Environmental factors, in the extreme, will only account for a 2-3ppm per month loss rate of CYA. CYA is extremely stable in water. If their levels are lower than expected, then they are likely using other supplemental sources of solid chlorine (cal-hypo) or they are being sold "liquid shock" or "liquid chlorine" by the Pool Stores which is nothing more than high strength bleach.

Just remember this too - pool ownership is a lot like home ownership, when you ask a neighbor how their house is holding up, all of them will say "just dandy" even though the roof is caving in and plumbing leaks everywhere. No one wants to admit pool problems because people feel it says something about them personally. Believe me, my neighbors who use pucks and spend a $1,000/year on service companies are endlessly trying to tell me their pools are just as good as mine even though they have cloudy water and unswimmable days. My pool is always open, always crystal clear, and always swimmable....and it has never been touched by a pool service "expert".
 
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Just remember this too - pool ownership is a lot like home ownership, when you ask a neighbor how their house is holding up, all of them will say "just dandy" even though the roof is caving in and plumbing leaks everywhere. No one wants to admit pool problems because people feel it says something about them personally. Believe me, my neighbors who use pucks and spend a $1,000/year on service companies are endlessly trying to tell me their pools are just as good as mine even though they have cloudy water and unswimmable days. My pool is always open, always crystal clear, and always swimmable....and it has never been touched by a pool service "expert".
lol :) Good points. I am guessing either errors reading the test or the above pride or a combo of both... Thanks for the discussion on the subject though, helpful...
 
I'm with you sbpse, I've seen/heard/read that it is 5-6 years (my neighbors experience) to 3-4 years to one year to 10 weeks before CYA becomes an issue. There doesn't seem to be any consistency that can be explained by normal water replacement due to rain/evaporation/splashout etc. Maybe there are differences in the brand of pucks used?
 
I'm with you sbpse, I've seen/heard/read that it is 5-6 years (my neighbors experience) to 3-4 years to one year to 10 weeks before CYA becomes an issue. There doesn't seem to be any consistency that can be explained by normal water replacement due to rain/evaporation/splashout etc. Maybe there are differences in the brand of pucks used?

Yes, exactly my thoughts. Just hard to believe that all of them are explained by user error and pride. My sampling isn't large though so I can't say that. 10 weeks is very aggressive to say that every pool would be out of spec in 10 weeks. I also have to wonder if that was the case why more pool care services wouldn't change their ways too.
 
You need some. PB says they will treat to 20ppm at initial fill, but based on what I have learned here, 40-50 would be better here in Texas. Correct me if that is wrong. I just can't guess how long it will take to rise to that level based on the inconsistency of the information so far.

- - - Updated - - -

What model pump did you get? Your pool is very similar in size to mine.
 
Evaporation and refill only removes water, not CYA, CH, salt, nor anything else that is not volatile. It is rain overflow, backwashing, splash-out that removes water and its contents and when you add water that dilutes what is in the pool. For pools that are "let go" over the winter, bacteria can convert CYA into nitrogen gas or nitrates if one is lucky (no chlorine demand), or into ammonia if one is unlucky (huge chlorine demand).

The CYA will not build up very quickly if one is using a lower chlorine level, but "They all maintain their FC at 2-3 PPM" doesn't make sense because 1) the claim from the UV manufacturers was that the FC would be maintained at 0.5 ppm and 2) at lower CYA levels one cannot maintain 2-3 ppm FC in full sunlight without using a lot of chlorine (are these pools covered?). Chlorine breakdown from the UV in sunlight at 2-3 ppm FC and a CYA of 30-50 ppm will be too high. So something about these claims does not make sense. How exactly is the UV system protecting chlorine from breakdown in sunlight? There's some information here that is not correct. Either the maintained FC levels are lower or the actual CYA levels are higher.

If instead he had said that the FC level was 0.5 ppm FC, then that would make more sense and the daily chlorine loss be around 0.5 ppm FC per day or less. Then the CYA buildup would be 0.5*30*0.61 = 9 ppm per month and with slow chlorine oxidation of CYA and water dilution one could have the CYA buildup be quite slow. The same would be true if the FC were 2 ppm but the CYA were 100+ ppm.

Consistency or makeup of the puck itself?

There are no Trichlor pucks with varying amounts of CYA. The CYA is in the Trichlor molecule itself. Look at Trichlor below:

Trichloorisocyanuurzuur.png


and compare with Cyanuric Acid below where you can see that Trichlor above simply replaces the hydrogen with chlorine attached to each nitrogen:

Cyanuric_acid.png


Again, it's not the UV system performing miracles here. Did you read the thread I linked to? That person was absolutely positively convinced that his ozone system was preventing algae growth. A SIMPLE experiment adding phosphates and nitrates to his pool demonstrated that the ozone system was not able to prevent algae growth on its own at low FC/CYA levels. A UV system is similar. Only algae and pathogens that circulate will get killed. Not all do and some remain stuck to pool surfaces and grow. That is the purpose of a residual disinfectant, namely chlorine. Now if these people actually had 2-3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA in their pools, then that would be enough to kill algae, but you wouldn't get such low daily FC loss (i.e. low use of Trichlor tabs).

The only reason we are making this point over and over is to prepare you for prevention of algae in case your algae nutrients increase in your pool and that this will not be a surprise and you will know how to handle it. The person with the ozonator wants a lower FC/CYA level for his wife and is able to achieve that, but understands that it wasn't the ozonator doing the "magic". He now knows that to maintain the lower FC/CYA levels he needs to prevent algae growth by keeping the algae nutrient level low by using a phosphate remover (mostly an infrequent event unless more phosphates get into a pool) or needs to use an algaecide.
 
I'm with you sbpse, I've seen/heard/read that it is 5-6 years (my neighbors experience) to 3-4 years to one year to 10 weeks before CYA becomes an issue. There doesn't seem to be any consistency that can be explained by normal water replacement due to rain/evaporation/splashout etc. Maybe there are differences in the brand of pucks used?

I will tell you this from experience - 99.99% of the time, people have no clue how high their CYA is. If you want proof, go read through the Algae threads and you will see the pattern I described. People using pucks for years thinking everything is ok (by mostly relying on pool store testing) and then, in the moment of desperation just before phoning in the backhoe to come and demolition the pool, they land here, order a test kit and are then floored at how far off all of their water chemistry levels are. As I said, it happens all the time. Also, when those people finally do clear their pools, they are AMAZED at how clear their water is and can not believe that they considered the cloudy water they had lived with for years swimmable. It's all in those threads, just go read them.

As for my analysis of trichlor, most high quality trichlor pucks are 99% trichlor, no additives. Places like Costco, Sam's Club and Walmart often sell "multipurpose" tablets that are a mixture of stuff (trichlor, baking soda, copper-based algaecides, clarifiers, etc). So, I guess using those types of tabs would extend the timeframe but they would also add lots of junk your pool does not need. If you're getting trichlor tabs from the pool store, chances are they are 99% trichlor and 7-8oz per 3" puck. My analysis is also MATH. The math does not lie. If you consistently add as much trichlor as I described, your CYA will be as I high as I predict.

So, to your points -

1. Water replacement - backwashing, at best, only causes about a 1-2% change in water volume. Unless your are backwashing every week (not recommended), then you're not changing your water volume significantly. Folks that live in areas of the country with winter climates will, as part of the winterization/closing process, typically drain 1/3-1/2 of their pool water. Those pools can use trichlor as they have enough annual water replacement to dilute the CYA from the previous season. As well, over-wintered closed pools typically develop small algae blooms and bacterial loads. The flora developed from that process can sometimes consume CYA and it is reported by those with that particular situation that CYA goes to 0ppm over winter (often leaving ammonia behind which is a much worse problem).

2. Rain - typically inconsequential. Unless the rains add several inches of pool water that you subsequently drain off, then the change in CYA by dilution is minimal. The recent deluge in Texas is not the norm for your area and, if you poll Texas folks here on TFP, you'll find their change in CYA was probably ~ 10% or so.

3. Evaporation - does nothing to change CYA. Evaporated water is replaced with fill water. Therefor there is no change in chemical levels like CYA.

4. Splashout - inconsequential. Splash out, even at it's worst, will have almost no effect on CYA levels. In a 20,000 gallon pool, 1% of the water volume is 200 gallons. That would be a phenomenal level of splash out.
 
I've never heard or said that a UV sanitizer prevents the breakdown of chlorine from the sun, only that it (UV-C) does not breakdown chlorine like the sun (UV-A) does.

I was told by one PB (very early on in the process before doing my own research and learning) that with a UV sanitizer, .5ppm chlorine level is all that is needed. That seemed low to me and now I know that FC level depends on CYA level, so that particular PB either didn't understand or was giving me a sales job. The current PB only says it will lower your overall chlorine use because the UV system will do much of the sanitizing that chlorine does.

As far as the algae, do you think that having the infloor cleaning system which "brushes" the sides and bottom with a power waterjet every day aids in keeping the algae suspended so the UV system can kill the algae effectively?
 

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