I made a little sprayer that attaches to a return to really get the aeration going. I need to hook it back up and get my TA down to 60!
10 years of pH bounce getting real aggravating
- Thread starter mikemass
- Start date
Your pool is large, the TA is a bit on the high side, the SWG is on for an extended time, and the spa is adding a bit of aeration and that all adds up to needing to add acid to the pool. For your pool size I would say a gallon of acid a week is not extreme.
If you drop the TA to 60, that will slow down the rate of the pH rising.
Not much you can do for the SWG time other than getting a larger sized system.
Need to know the fill water test results to see what is happening there.
To lower the TA, drop the pH to 7.2 and run the spa and let it overflow to the pool. When the pH rises to 7.8 drop the pH down to 7.2 and repeat. This is safe for all the pool equipment and surfaces and it should go quickly with the spa running. Once the TA hits 60, see how much acid it takes to keep the pH in the 7.5/7.8 range.
If you drop the TA to 60, that will slow down the rate of the pH rising.
Not much you can do for the SWG time other than getting a larger sized system.
Need to know the fill water test results to see what is happening there.
To lower the TA, drop the pH to 7.2 and run the spa and let it overflow to the pool. When the pH rises to 7.8 drop the pH down to 7.2 and repeat. This is safe for all the pool equipment and surfaces and it should go quickly with the spa running. Once the TA hits 60, see how much acid it takes to keep the pH in the 7.5/7.8 range.
A larger system will not lower the pH rise. pH rise is not due to run time, but is due to the lbs per hour of chlorine being produced.
You are missing the point about the Spa. It's negligible. I shouldn't even have mentioned I have one. It's not a waterfall (I said this)... The surface of the spa is the exact same as the surface of the pool. The moment the spa water rises a hair above the pool water due to the pump running, the water trickles.... No... It DRIPS over. It is irrelevant. I have done my own tests where I turn off the SWG and the Spa. Test pH. Then I turn off SWG but leave spa on and test. Then SWG on, spa off and test. It's ONLY the SWG causing the pH to rise. Trust me on this.
And we don't NEED to know the fill water TA. I will test it anyway to satisfy everyone who wants to know. It's an almost 40k gallon pool that needed 3" on "topping off" upon Spring reopen and seldom, if ever, gets any hose water throughout the season. The pH from my fill water is already below neutral. So if anything I should be helping the cause by adding fill water. But I will check tonight and report back.
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Very interesting and helpful read. This answers my questions about extreme methods which I was trying to get an answer to. TY.
I did not say that the spa is causing the pH rise. I'm saying to run the spa so you can lower the TA faster. The spa will aerate the water which will make the pH rise and you can get the TA down to 60 in a day or two. Good luck!
Yes. I understand. It just seems that everyone is assuming this spa is some violent, water breaking, overflow of a waterfall. There are 3 modes:
1. Normal operation where the spa just gently trickles over the wall, as I have described. In this mode my return line to both the shallow end and deep end are open as well. Spa Drain is completely closed, so water can flow into pool. (This does nothing for aeration)
2. Full Spa mode. Spa Drain & returns fully opened. Pool Drain and returns fully closed. This is indeed a violent bubble bath. But will not circulate the pool. not an option.
3. Heavy Spillover mode. Spa drain fully closed. Pool drain fully Open. Spa returns fully Open. Pool Returns fully closed. Now this option is also a violent aerating extravaganza. It also allows water to recirculate into the pool. However, I am not comfortable running solely in this mode as I don't feel the pool will properly be turned over. All the return water is coming from the spa over flow. No water is being returned to the deep or shallow ends returns.
But - I just thought of something. I have this water fountain for the pool, that you screw the hose of the fountain to a return line. Float the fountain in the middle of the pool, and it squirts out and make a nice splashing mess on the surface.
After reading that article that duraleigh posted, (and now understanding how you have to "lose" CO2 to the atmosphere) I am wondering if the "aeration" from my SWG is actually causing CO2 to escape into the air. I mean there is gasses and agitation being created in the cell, but is CO2 actually escaping into the air without the active turbulence of surface water?
1. Normal operation where the spa just gently trickles over the wall, as I have described. In this mode my return line to both the shallow end and deep end are open as well. Spa Drain is completely closed, so water can flow into pool. (This does nothing for aeration)
2. Full Spa mode. Spa Drain & returns fully opened. Pool Drain and returns fully closed. This is indeed a violent bubble bath. But will not circulate the pool. not an option.
3. Heavy Spillover mode. Spa drain fully closed. Pool drain fully Open. Spa returns fully Open. Pool Returns fully closed. Now this option is also a violent aerating extravaganza. It also allows water to recirculate into the pool. However, I am not comfortable running solely in this mode as I don't feel the pool will properly be turned over. All the return water is coming from the spa over flow. No water is being returned to the deep or shallow ends returns.
But - I just thought of something. I have this water fountain for the pool, that you screw the hose of the fountain to a return line. Float the fountain in the middle of the pool, and it squirts out and make a nice splashing mess on the surface.
After reading that article that duraleigh posted, (and now understanding how you have to "lose" CO2 to the atmosphere) I am wondering if the "aeration" from my SWG is actually causing CO2 to escape into the air. I mean there is gasses and agitation being created in the cell, but is CO2 actually escaping into the air without the active turbulence of surface water?
That is the main cause/effect of pH rising from a SWG.
The pH increases faster when the pH is low and the TA is high. This is why we suggest to having the TA at 60 and pH at 7.8 to get the most benefits of this relationship. Borates can also help with this because you can lower the TA down to 50 which will slow down the rate of rise even slower, but over time you will still have to add about the same amount of acid, just more of it each time.
But is the effect of the SWG enough to allow CO2 to escape the pool, thereby lowering TA? Or do I need to install a true aerator, such as the water fountain I mentioned?
It seems from that article that you need some serious water breakage to remove Carbon Dioxide from the water. A SWG, although great at raising the pH, doesn't exactly "break water". I never realized how important the aeration part of the process was. I knew my SWG would raise the pH, so I never bothered using real bubbling aeration. So the question remains: Is my SWG an acceptable means of aeration during the "lower TA" process?
It seems from that article that you need some serious water breakage to remove Carbon Dioxide from the water. A SWG, although great at raising the pH, doesn't exactly "break water". I never realized how important the aeration part of the process was. I knew my SWG would raise the pH, so I never bothered using real bubbling aeration. So the question remains: Is my SWG an acceptable means of aeration during the "lower TA" process?
The fountain will speed up the process and so will running the spa.
The SWG may or may not help enough as other variables come into play such as the fill water. If you have add fill water that has a high TA value, then you might always be going the wrong way with the TA.
Myself, I can lower the TA down to 50 for around two months before it climbs back up to 80 from this time of year and on. It is a process that I go through 2 to 3 times a year to keep the pH from having large swings every week.
The SWG may or may not help enough as other variables come into play such as the fill water. If you have add fill water that has a high TA value, then you might always be going the wrong way with the TA.
Myself, I can lower the TA down to 50 for around two months before it climbs back up to 80 from this time of year and on. It is a process that I go through 2 to 3 times a year to keep the pH from having large swings every week.
Thanks for the help from all who contributed to this thread. Will get to work on it this weekend. I have to pull that fountain out of the shed, get it hooked up and have time to monitor the levels while I am home. I have a few other things I need to tweak also:
- A few more bags of salt.
- Bring up my CYA which will be arriving from Amazon tomorrow (see my other thread I started yesterday)
Other than that I think I'm good to go for the season.
- A few more bags of salt.
- Bring up my CYA which will be arriving from Amazon tomorrow (see my other thread I started yesterday)
Other than that I think I'm good to go for the season.