16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

[setsailsoon]

It's hard to tell, but it does not look like 5/16".

It is very difficult to get an accurate measurement.

If you get a flowmeter and some vacuum and discharge pressure readings, then we can better assess the flow rate.

I know that 4" pipe seems big, but it might be a little bit undersized if you want to get the full flow from both pumps on the Infinity edge.

You definitely need to get the heater off of the Infinity Edge loop.

View attachment 583582

It is definitely 5/16 of an inch. I tried to take a photograph but I couldn't hold the camera and everything to get the photo of it. I was down at eye level looking straight at the ruler all around the pool. I did find one low spot that's actually on the house side of the spa that's a little more than 5/16 of an inch maybe 3/8 so when I turn the pool off that is where we drain from last. I'm very pleased with the level on that inside wall. As you can see from the first video we had that formed up after the gunite work and the top of that form work took a lot of time to get right. We double checked it frequently with a bubble level, and my zip level and a water level.

 

[JamesW]

What are the dimensions of the trough?

Run the pump and measure the depth in the trough at different speeds and then turn the pump off and see how much the water level rises.

Allow about 10 minutes after lowering the speed before checking the depth.

Or, start at off and incrementally increase the speed.

You have to make sure that you start with the pool exactly full to the edge by filling to overflowing.

Speed...............Trough Depth.
3450......................
3000......................
2500......................
2000......................
1720......................
1,250......................
0......................

 

[JamesW]

I didn't actually measure this yet but it looks to be about 2 in. That probably includes overnight evaporation less than half an inch.

1.75" is about 28/16", which is about 3/16" lift.

 

[JamesW]

It is definitely 5/16 of an inch.

5/16" seems unlikely.

The trough will be more accurate than trying to measure the lift.

Maybe get some vacuum and pressure readings at different speeds.

Maybe get a 4" flow meter.

Speed...............Vacuum...................Pressure............Flow.
3450......................
3000......................
2500......................
2000......................
1720......................
1,250......................
0......................

 

[setsailsoon]

It's kind of hard to tell but the inside of the infinity Basin has three coats of waterproofing on it. The top Edge and wall Edge are bare concrete and you can see a little difference in color. I checked the inside of the basin pretty carefully first couple of days that we had water to verify we were not leaking any out. There's just a tiny change in the level that I expect is evaporation.

PS Thanks for the suggestion. I went to a lot of effort to make sure the concrete is very robust... would be a shame to start having too much fun and let it get messed up for a simple little thing like get it water proofed before I finish my fun!

 

[setsailsoon]

Folks,

Thanks for all the great comments and fluid dynamics analysis. I'll try to get a lot of the readings later today. Next thing on my list is to get some basic controls working... it's a real pain to be going back and forth to turn on/off pumps and change speeds without my RPi working. Hopefully @Katodude is still in the wings to help me on that.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

The entire perimeter is not taking as much flow per foot as the Infinity Edge

James, why do you think this? The infinity edge is at the same elevation around the entire pool. Do you think the floor returns are making that much difference?

 

[JamesW]

Did you measure the flow from this pipe?

It looks pretty slow.

What is the pipe size?

Is that the total flow from the entire perimeter except for the Infinity edge?

The rest of the perimeter is not flowing freely over a wall like the Infinity edge, it is going into a channel and backing up and the flow is limited to the channel flow rate.

Measure the flow from the pipe and check the trough depth difference with different speeds.

Then, cap the pipe with a pipe cap and see what difference it makes.

 

[setsailsoon]

Did you measure the flow from this pipe?

It looks pretty slow.

What is the pipe size?

Is that the total flow from the entire perimeter except for the Infinity edge?

The rest of the perimeter is not flowing freely over a wall like the Infinity edge, it is going into a channel and backing up and the flow is limited to the channel flow rate.

Measure the flow from the pipe and check the trough depth difference with different speeds.

Then, cap the pipe with a pipe cap and see what difference it makes.




View attachment 583759

If you look closely you can see there's almost as much leakage around the pipe. There's a similar amount at the other end. And the gutter is actually backing up the same height over as the infinity edge as best I can tell. The tile guy is supposed to come seal the pipe in the gutter. After that I should be able to block in the valves on each end of the gutter and do a good bucket timer test on each end. Right now it splashes everywhere when I'm at full speed including outside the basin.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Today, I left the fill line on accidentally and overflowed the basin for quite a while. Can't wait to get my controls going! Also this consumed a LOT of extra chemicals. I've gone through 2 1/2 gal of acid and 16 gal of chlorine just since we got running. Got the RPi fired up this afternoon and learning a lot about setting it up. Node Red is pretty amazing software. It's hot as a firecracker outside so I'm using the RPi in the control cabinet sitting in my dining room (Robin loves this) and running the RS485 out the back door to the pump. Hoping to get most of the valves, sensors, pumps hooked up and configured this way so I can minimize the outside work.

*** EDIT***
For those that are just starting on this LONG thread, I should clarify the chemical consumption is since I started adding my nasty well water to this OB pool and running the pump (about a week). A lot of the chemical consumption was due to my well water that is high in sulfide (2-3 ppm) and contains trace levels of tannin. There is a slight yellow tint to the water which when viewed with the blue plaster looks green and nasty. But after only 2-3 days of FC at 3-4 ppm it clears up very nicely. But when I inadvertently dump a bunch of water then refill with well water I can really go through the chemicals! Implementing my automation will help prevent this a LOT. Even with it's natural iffy smell and yellow tint the water is really perfect for plaster curing since it's very balanced from a TA and CH perspective so long as I keep the pH between about 7.6 - 8.0 for 30 days. So while it cures I'm getting pumps/automation working and rewarding 4 months of hard OB work by swimming (and brushing) every day now! As you can see I'm also benefiting from a lot of friendly help from experts on here. This pool design is pretty unique and I'm learning a lot about it's fluid dynamics performance. Thanks to all that are contributing!

Chris

 

[JamesW]

What is this pipe?

 

[setsailsoon]

That's an overflow that will be piped to a drain box that runs back behind the pool... good eyes!

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Is the over flow pipe straight or does it go up to the top of the basin wall before going down and exiting?

 

[JamesW]

Trying to get an exact depth in the trough might be tricky due to the splashing and waves when the pump is on.

Maybe create a quiet zone with something.

You can stand a piece of 4” PVC pipe in the trough and measure the depth inside the pipe where the water is calm.

Maybe drill a 1/4” hole near the bottom to equalize the water pressure if the pipe sits flat against the bottom.

Measure the exact length of the pipe and measure down from the top and measure from the bottom to get 2 readings.

For example, if the pipe is 3 feet long and the water is down by 4” in the pipe, then the bottom up measurement should be 2’8”.

 

[JamesW]

That's an overflow that will be piped to a drain box that runs back behind the pool... good eyes!

Seems low for an overflow.

I would want it as high as possible.

Maybe about 1" from the top edge.

Maybe 90 up to increase the level.

 

[setsailsoon]

Is the over flow pipe straight or does it go up to the top of the basin wall before going down and exiting?

Right now it's capped off. Can't do final installation until we final grading but plan is to loop it up on the inside and flow down to a series of pop-ups just like we have on the gutter drains. If this gets more than seldom use something's pretty wrong. Might just cap it and do nothing.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Seems low for an overflow.

I would want it as high as possible.

Maybe about 1" from the top edge.

Maybe 90 up to increase the level.

Yep, that's the plan. Because of the way forming was done it wasn't possible to have it higher so I plan to put an elbow in and go very close to the top. This should seldom get used so I may just leave it capped for now and hook it up if I see a real need for it.

 

[setsailsoon]

Trying to get an exact depth in the trough might be tricky due to the splashing and waves when the pump is on.

Maybe create a quiet zone with something.

You can stand a piece of 4” PVC pipe in the trough and measure the depth inside the pipe where the water is calm.

Maybe drill a 1/4” hole near the bottom to equalize the water pressure if the pipe sits flat against the bottom.

Measure the exact length of the pipe and measure down from the top and measure from the bottom to get 2 readings.

For example, if the pipe is 3 feet long and the water is down by 4” in the pipe, then the bottom up measurement should be 2’8”.

Great idea. I also have a zip level that can measure elevations with crazy precision (.2mm in HP mode). It was invaluable in setting the finish concrete and tile levels. I may try to use this on the gutter flow heights also.

Thanks!

 

[JamesW]

Trying to measure lift at the top of the Infinity edge is probably not accurate due to the way that the water profile will change as the water encounters the edge.

It probably creates a ridge that causes it to read higher than actual lift.

We really need multiple different ways to calculate each value to see if the different ways produce consistent results.

 

[setsailsoon]

13 June 2024 Update: Start up and Florida Rainy Season is Here!

As many will know from national news we're getting pounded this week with Florida rainy season storms. Yesterday, I measured 5" in 2 hours! Then it rained off and on all day long. This should help me with pH control but it's not. I checked pH of rain water; it's right at 7.5. pH has been stubbornly difficult to keep below 8 and has required about 32 oz per day to stay about 7.8. This morning, after all the rain yesterday it jumped up to 8.2. I guess this is just the new plaster effect @JoyfulNoise mentioned several times. He said it would be surprising how much pH rises and it definitely is. I've been averaging 32 oz muriatic per day. Today even with all the rain yesterday that appears to have doubled. So I double-dosed which I never do because I know we don't usually like to go for more than .3 change. With all the rain brushing is almost impossible and today is supposed to be the worst yet. Bottom is getting covered with small pieces of plaster chips and stones that get tracked in from the muddy sandy areas between the pool and pad. Can't wait to get the outer area of pavers done so I can get sod back in the surrounding yard but weather is always a challenge for construction and I just need to deal with it. But weather affects the paver sub as well. My extra 200 pavers are in but they probably won't be able to work until this Monday.

Today, if I get a break I plan to hook up a vacuum connection to one of the pumps so I can clean up the bottom with a manual no-roller vacuum. I plan to have this connection to both pumps in the long term with valves to select the correct pump. Hopefully it wont be needed very much so manual valves is all I'm going to use. I'm also building the control panel inside the dining room. Since I'm stumped on connecting the temp I'll just try to get the pump working. During the setup time I'm doing this with a long wire from the dining room (I think @Katodude suggested it and it's a great way to go with our weather issues).

Chris