Exact nature of harm from sodium bromide algaecides

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greenpoolboy

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Jul 16, 2024
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“Someone stated that applying any bromine to a chlorine pool turns it into a bromine pool where any future addition of chlorine gets turned to bromine. This makes no sense to me.”

Me either, that’s why I used yellowtrine after reading a bunch of people making dire warnings like “once you put bromine in a pool, it’s a bromine pool forever”. The problem with everyone’s argument is they never considered the rate at which bromide degrades to bromate or what conditions enable that degradation. And I didnt just read those warnings here, I read them all over the place. What’s interesting is if you search the topic on google, you’ll get mostly results saying not to use sodium bromine but if you search using DuckDuckGo, most results will favor using it, so the search results on google are skewed because some chemical manufacturer is paying google to skew results in their favor.

Sodium bromide worked great against yellow algae. I will definitely use it if I have the problem again. One night with bromine worked better than the 3 prior days of over 20 ppm chlorine (I don’t know how much over because that is the max my test strips read. The yellowtrine worked much better than a high chlorine level and it degraded to bromate and stopped burning chlorine in a day and a half. My pool has full sunlight all day and it’s been hot out, and those are important factors.

When used as directed, you only add .06 ppm to your pool, and every time bromide goes through the cycle to bromine and back, there is a chance it will be converted to bromate. Under direct sun, the chance is pretty high. So if you maintain high chlorine levels in the day then the bromine all suicides pretty quickly. Sodium bromide is the only thing I’ve tried aside from chlorine that actually works, and works better than chlorine even.
 
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JoyfulNoise said:
You misunderstand the chemistry and you're making some assertions that are not true. Let me deal with two -

1. You can't turn chlorine atoms into bromine atoms ...

True. But nuclear reactors have nothing to do with it.

Bromine is added to a pool as bromide salt. In other words it's a bromine atom with a -1 oxidation state. Sodium bromide (NaBr) is the main salt of bromine that gets added to a pool. So how does bromide sanitize a pool ... it doesn't. Bromide ions are completely inert. The way you make bromide ions turn into to sanitizing bromine (Br+) ions, is by oxidizing the bromide into bromine. Then the bromine forms an active sanitizing compound hypobromous acid (HOBr). What oxidizes bromide (Br-) into bromine (Br+) ... a strong oxidizer like chlorine (either hypochlorous acid or hypochlorite anion).

So, when bromide ions are present in water, the addition of chlorine into the water causes a chemical reaction. The bromide ion is oxidized into bromine and the chlorine ion is reduced to chloride. This reactions is fast and one-sided ... that means that, as long as there enough bromide ions in the water, any addition of chlorine will be completely consumed turning the bromide into bromine and the chlorine into chloride.

The pool will now be a brominated swimming pool.

2. Chlorine evaporates easily and needs a stabilizer, but bromine does not ...

This is a misunderstanding of how chlorine is used up in a swimming pool and a misapplication of the term evaporates.

Evaporation implies that a chemical compound converts into a gaseous phase and that there is a driving force that removes that phase from the water and puts it into the atmosphere. First, nothing "evaporates" from the water. Not chlorine, not bromine. Both of those atoms stay firmly fixed in the solution. There is no appreciable loss of either of those chemicals to any volatile species that might leave the water. Both chlorine and bromine interact with UV light which reduces both of those energetic ions to there -1 oxidation state. In other words, when chlorine reacts with UV light it is reduced to chloride and when bromine reacts with UV light, it is reduced to bromide. Nothing ever leaves the water.

What cyanuric acid stabilizer does is to react with and bond to the active chlorine ion and form a bonded compound called a chlorinated cyanurate. These cyanurates are immune to UV light and protect the chlorine atom from being converted to chloride. The cyanuartes themselves also absorb light in the UV spectrum and re-radiate it at a lower wavelength, typically IR or as heat. Bromine, on the other hand, has no comparable chemical reaction with cyanurates and thus can not be stabilized against UV photolysis.

So, when a pool has bromine in it, the loss rate of bromine to UV photolysis will be orders of magnitude higher than chlorine and it will be the dominant mechanism for loss of bromine. When you add bromine to an outdoor pool, it needs a continual source of oxidation to convert it from spent bromide back into bromine. Bather waste will consume some of the bromine but most of it will be converted back to bromide by UV light. By contrast, in a chlorinated swimming pool with CYA, most of the loss is due to bather waste, biological disinfection and chemical oxidation, and very little of it is due to UV photolysis.
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“The pool will now be a brominated swimming pool.”

For how long? That is the point where your explanation fails. You don’t consider the rate at which bromine/bromide degrades to bromate. And since you don’t consider that, you also don’t consider the factors related to that rate. Sodium bromide added in the amount directed on the label will degrade to bromate in hot weather with full sun and a high chlorine level to keep it cycling in under two days. I know this because I just did it, and ironically enough, it was your post here that finally convinced me to try it.
I read your theory and noticed you didn’t address degradation rate and neither did anyone else that described the bromide cycle so it became apparent that I was viewing groupthink. Someone stated an argument well so it was taken as fact and repeated, becoming a truth through repetition. So I started looking at studies of bromate production in sea water, drinking water and natural bodies of water and saw that the rapid conversion of bromides to bromate by UV rays is a problem researchers have been trying to solve.

Sodium bromide works great in chlorine pools in the amount given in the directions. It is much more effective at killing yellow algae and it’s gone from your pool in a matter of days.
 
Thank you for your response.

Several questions arise from assertions you make. Notably you state that -

greenpoolboy said:
Sodium bromide added in the amount directed on the label will degrade to bromate in hot weather with full sun and a high chlorine level to keep it cycling in under two days.
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You state this without any mechanism describe and assert that the bromine will be gone in 2 days ... based on this personal anecdote -

greenpoolboy said:
When used as directed, you only add .06 ppm to your pool, and every time bromide goes through the cycle to bromine and back, there is a chance it will be converted to bromate.
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Perhaps you'd like to pay for and read the following article (there are many such studies like this) -

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Bromate ion formation in dark chlorination and ultraviolet/chlorination processes for bromide-containing water - PubMed

Bormate (BrO3(-)) is a carcinogenic chemical produced in ozonation or chlorination of bromide-containing water. Although its formation in seawater with or without sunlight has been previously investigated, the formation of bromate in dilute solutions, particularly raw water for water treatment...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

What you will find in many of these analyses is that bromate formation is only favored in low pH conditions at high temperature (greater than what is typically found in pools) and with UV sources that mostly produce UV-C radiation (very little UV-C radiation makes it through the ozone layer in the Earth's upper atmosphere). Even under those conditions, the conversion of bromide to bromate is quite slow. In your own experiments you add roughly 0.06ppm, or 60ppb, bromine to the pool. That concentration is so low that you would not be able to distinguish normal chlorine loss from bromine-induced chlorine loss and you certainly couldn't do that with test strips.

But, you're a big believer in experiments, as am I, so I urge you to add about 2lbs of pure sodium bromide to your pool which should be roughly 11ppm. Then you can report back on how long it took for the chlorine demand to return to normal ... I'd find the information absolutely fascinating ...

For now, TFP will continue to advise pool owners NOT to use bromine containing products as they will almost certainly cause more problems than they will fix. As soon as you bring us some new information based on your experiments, we'd be happy to review the matter.
 
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JoyfulNoise said:
Thank you for your response.

Several questions arise from assertions you make. Notably you state that -



You state this without any mechanism describe and assert that the bromine will be gone in 2 days ... based on this personal anecdote -
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Yes, I do. Which is better, actual experience or an abstract theory that you have never tested and which is missing the most important piece of data need to come to the conclusion of that theory? You don’t know how fast bromide degrades to bromate so you can’t say whether bromide as an algaecide will cause problems.
JoyfulNoise said:
Perhaps you'd like to pay for and read the following article (there are many such studies like this) -

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Bromate ion formation in dark chlorination and ultraviolet/chlorination processes for bromide-containing water - PubMed

Bormate (BrO3(-)) is a carcinogenic chemical produced in ozonation or chlorination of bromide-containing water. Although its formation in seawater with or without sunlight has been previously investigated, the formation of bromate in dilute solutions, particularly raw water for water treatment...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Why? Will it change the reality that sodium bromide worked great and was gone from my pool within two days?
JoyfulNoise said:
“What you will find in many of these analyses is that bromate formation is only favored in low pH conditions at high temperature (greater than what is typically found in pools) and with UV sources that mostly produce UV-C radiation (very little UV-C radiation makes it through the ozone layer in the Earth's upper atmosphere). “
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I can assure you my pool isn’t in the upper atmosphere.
JoyfulNoise said:
Even under those conditions, the conversion of bromide to bromate is quite slow. In your own experiments you add roughly 0.06ppm, or 60ppb, bromine to the pool. That concentration is so low that you would not be able to distinguish normal chlorine loss from bromine-induced chlorine loss and you certainly couldn't do that with test strips
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This isn’t the first time I’ve shocked my pool. It usually takes a couple days to get back to normal, and it won’t drop to .5 because I have 50ppm cya.
JoyfulNoise said:
But, you're a big believer in experiments, as am I, so I urge you to add about 2lbs of pure sodium bromide to your pool which should be roughly 11ppm. Then you can report back on how long it took for the chlorine demand to return to normal ... I'd find the information absolutely fascinating ...
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Why would I do that when .06 ppm worked great? As I stated in my last post sodium bromide works well as an algaecide and doesn’t cause issues when added in the amount prescribed by the manufacturer. What does dumping 2 pounds of sodium bromide into your pool have to do with that? Wouldn’t that just be the act of an idiot?
JoyfulNoise said:
For now, TFP will continue to advise pool owners NOT to use bromine containing products as they will almost certainly cause more problems than they will fix. As soon as you bring us some new information based on your experiments, we'd be happy to review the matter.
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do whatever you want to do. I’m sure your method works great. I’m not trying to challenge your system, and I wouldn’t expect you to change some system you’ve worked out because one anonymous guy online found sodium bromide to work well. I’m just saying that the impact of a small amount of sodium bromide on a chlorine pool has been greatly exaggerated, not necessarily by you or this forum, but by the pool industry, our culture, or whatever you want to call it.

I read the “once a bromine pool always a bromine pool” quote from many different sources and found that in amounts consistent with algaecide under the right conditions, that just isn’t correct.
 
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greenpoolboy said:
Sodium bromide works great in chlorine pools in the amount given in the directions. It is much more effective at killing yellow algae and it’s gone from your pool in a matter of days.
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No it doesn't, no it isn't, and no it definitely is not.

Just to confirm the situation: you can't explain any of your claims, you're pushing conspiracy theories about search results, resurrecting ancient threads (I saw your reply to an 11 year old post, lol), are basing all your opinions on guesses and test strip readings, and somehow on your very first day you're going to jump in and start telling people with vast water chemistry experience and knowledge and data to back it all up... that they're wrong? Does that about sum it up?

Good luck with that :goodjob:
 

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Donldson said:
No it doesn't, no it isn't, and no it definitely is not.

Just to confirm the situation: you can't explain any of your claims, you're pushing conspiracy theories about search results, resurrecting ancient threads (I saw your reply to an 11 year old post, lol)are basing all your opinions on guesses and test strip readings, and somehow on your very first day you're going to jump in and start telling people with vast water chemistry experience and knowledge and data to back it all up... that they're wrong? Does that about sum it up?

Good luck with that :goodjob:
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“you're pushing conspiracy theories”
You think google altering search results to benefit advertisers is a conspiracy theory? No wonder you’re claiming the lifespan of sodium bromide is eternal. You just have some crazy notions.

The funny thing about you complaining about me responding to an old thread is that you read it and accordingly validate me responding to an old thread. It doesn’t matter how old the thread is if people are still reading it.

Sorry Mr. Expert, when you’re wrong, you’re wrong. Sodium bromide worked and did not turn my pool into a bromine pool. I’m sure it really stings to be proven wrong by a novice at pools though you’ve probably sat through a whole three hour training seminar to sell tfp. You’ll live and your ego will recover. You’ll probably always be an Not nice person though.


Why do you people not want anyone to know that sodium bromide works in chlorine pools as an algaecide? Are you worried you won’t be able to sell them expensive test kits and talk them into buying ten times the amount of chlorine they actually need to kill the algae and then permanently jacking their chlorine levels to 4-5 times recommended levels if they realize yellow algae is pretty easy to eliminate at regular shock levels with sodium bromide?

If you people had your way everyone that came to this forum would be dumping a pound of chlorine into their pool every day for the rest of their lives.
 
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Let’s be clear - you have proven nothing other than you added a tiny fractional amount of sodium bromide to your pool then you swore it was all gone because you couldn’t detect it with your test strips. Therefore your conclusion is that sodium bromide is perfectly ok to add to any pool.

Do you not see how absolutely unscientific and incredibly obtuse that is??

Then you come on here, acting like an absolute internet troll, and expect everyone to what … take you at your singular word that bromine is awesome???

Please dude, go find a pool group on Facebook … they’ll love you there.
 
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greenpoolboy said:
Sodium bromide worked great against yellow algae. I will definitely use it if I have the problem again.
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If you keep getting algae, then you really do not know what you are doing.

This is typical Pool Store nonsense of getting algae and then doing a bunch of unnecessary things to clear it up and cycling through this process endlessly.

Typical recommendations from Pool Stores and Facebook Groups.

Replace the filter sand.
Buy a bigger pump.
Add algaecide.
Add ammonia.
Add clarifier.
Add Phosphate remover.
Add Copper.
Use Enzymes.
Use sodium bromide.
Use Floc.
Use non chlorine shock.
Use a Mr. Clean Sponge in the skimmer.
Use a piece of copper pipe in the skimmer.

$500.00 in chemicals later and maybe the pool is clear for a week or two before it gets cloudy and green again and you start the process all over again.

Pool Care Basics

Overnight Chlorine Loss Test

SLAM Process

PoolMath

FC/CYA Levels

Test Kits Compared





 
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