Did I add too much stabilizer? How could CYA drop more than half in a year?

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outdoorsgal

LifeTime Supporter
Jan 24, 2015
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Phoenix, AZ
Hi. Does it seem possible to lose 45 CYA in a year? I only recorded backwashing my pool twice in a year, so that was likely (and hopefully) wrong. Let's say I backwashed 5 times, though. I still wouldn't loose more than half of the CYA if I'm just emptying an inch or 2 of h20 out of the pool if the only way to get rid of CYA is by emptying water, correct?

The other reasons for discrepancies could be
1. my testing a year ago was not correct (but I did add the amount of stabilizer I added and recorded it-maybe 8 lbs if I recall correctly-I have it written in the app)
2. could my 3 bottles of r0013 all be bad? I bought a new TF-100 kit and that new bottle of r0013 doesn't have an exp date, neither does the one from last year. I tested with all 3 bottles a couple of times throughout this process of getting my pool ready for the summer and then I threw out the old bottle. I have a larger bottle that expires in June that I'm also using.

I've added about 5 lbs of stabilizer trying to increase my cya numbers and I'm pretty nervous about it. I still have some stabilizer in a sock in the skimmer and am thinking I'll take it out until I get some replies here.

I'm also nervous cuz Leslies said I had 57 the other day before adding an extra 3 lbs.

I didn't measure exactly how much I added because I made the mistake of doing it over the skimmer and getting it wet immediately (twice).

I know I"m not supposed to trust the pool store's readings but my readings have also been all over the place.

I measured 50 cya. I added 46 oz and then measured 20, then 30, then 35-different days/times of day/bottles of r0013, but somexs measuring 2 or 3 xs between bottles to try to see if they were both the same.

I'm also doing a SLAM, which I don't believe would effect the CYA reading.

If u are able to provide any feedback that would be greatly appreciated. Proavia's gonna tell me I should've had this right by now.

thanks!
 
Over a years time, yes, the CYA can degrade. During summer, with high pool water temperatures and high UV, we can lose 10-15 ppm CYA per month. But not during winter, nor in a few days time. Those are always testing inconsistencies.

The R0013 reagent is very stable. Unless you have let it get frozen or stay in 100F+ temperatures, it is fine.
 
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mknauss said:
Over a years time, yes, the CYA can degrade. During summer, with high pool water temperatures and high UV, we can lose 10-15 ppm CYA per month. But not during winter, nor in a few days time. Those are always testing inconsistencies.

The R0013 reagent is very stable. Unless you have let it get frozen or stay in 100F+ temperatures, it is fine.
Click to expand...
thx so much for your awsome reply. that helps a lot and so then it makes sense. I didn't think I'd have to add more stabilizer until I empty the pool. I was also wondering if it's measured in ppms. So, I'm back to not trusting the pool store's measurements, so that's good. even the pool repair guy says his salt tool measures to the tiniest degree but we had a descrepancy of 400 on salt. I think the pool store says how accurate their machines r now a days. I wondered if it has changed now that they r fully measured by a machine instead of a person.

Proavia was right, I need to do a full test each month. Somehow I skipped the CYA and thought the only way to get rid of it is the empty the pool. That seemed pretty consistent, I think even on TFP site. Thanks for this info. It's quite a relief and helps a lot-especially since the cya in the sock had already dissolved quickly this time.

I still have testing issues it seems but that's another story I guess. I also still wonder why TFT doesn't put an exp date on their bottles of r0013. The one I bought off of amazon puts an exp date.

Now the next question is, how long to wait until I retest/add more stabilizer? 24 hrs?

thx so much
 
outdoorsgal said:
Now the next question is, how long to wait until I retest/add more stabilizer? 24 hrs?
Click to expand...
Hi Kim
Welcome back!

Explain exactly how you added the stabilizer. This will determine when it might show on the test.

You've been around here for over 9 years. Don't doubt your own testing.
Stay out of the pool store. You have proven to yourself multiple times that their 'testing' is inaccurate.

When was the last time you replaced all of your TF-100 rragents?
If its been over 2 years, order a reagent replacement kit today.

As for expiration dates... when I get a full reagent kit replacement I write the month/year on the R-0013 bottle.
TFTestkits warrants the freshness for one year from shipping date. If you faithfully store the entire kit inside in a dark closet/cabinet, you can usually get two years out of the reagents. Replace the entire set of reagents at least every two years.

Review the extended test kit directions again.

Extended Test Kit Directions Archives

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

As we have previously discussed, consistency in testing is important.
  • Be methodical in your testing.
  • Hold the reagent bottled perfectly vertical.
  • Let the drops fully form on the bottle tip.
  • Dispense at a rate of about one drop every second.
  • Do not force the drops off the tip.
  • Be sure your SpeedStir has fresh batteries.

Set a schedule for testing and stick to it.
  • FC and PH daily.
  • TA weekly - try to keep TA down around 60-70. With evaporation and out high TA fill water, TA will rise.
  • All tests at least monthly - even in the off season. We don't close out pools here in AZ and they require our attention even when it's too cold to swim.
 
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proavia said:
Hi Kim
Welcome back!

Explain exactly how you added the stabilizer. This will determine when it might show on the test.

You've been around here for over 9 years. Don't doubt your own testing.
Stay out of the pool store. You have proven to yourself multiple times that their 'testing' is inaccurate.

When was the last time you replaced all of your TF-100 rragents?
If its been over 2 years, order a reagent replacement kit today.

As for expiration dates... when I get a full reagent kit replacement I write the month/year on the R-0013 bottle.
TFTestkits warrants the freshness for one year from shipping date. If you faithfully store the entire kit inside in a dark closet/cabinet, you can usually get two years out of the reagents. Replace the entire set of reagents at least every two years.

Review the extended test kit directions again.

Extended Test Kit Directions Archives

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

As we have previously discussed, consistency in testing is important.
  • Be methodical in your testing.
  • Hold the reagent bottled perfectly vertical.
  • Let the drops fully form on the bottle tip.
  • Dispense at a rate of about one drop every second.
  • Do not force the drops off the tip.
  • Be sure your SpeedStir has fresh batteries.

Set a schedule for testing and stick to it.
  • FC and PH daily.
  • TA weekly - try to keep TA down around 60-70. With evaporation and out high TA fill water, TA will rise.
  • All tests at least monthly - even in the off season. We don't close out pools here in AZ and they require our attention even when it's too cold to swim.
Click to expand...
Gene, thx for the warm welcome. I thought you were gonna "yell" at me o_O . I was sure I'd get through this "start up" without problems this time.

I'm sure I've been told before that the SWG pool needs chlorine in the winter but I didn't remember that. I guess I thought I could time the winter right but I now realize I need to buy pucks or use the extra chlorine I'll have after this SLAM as I bought too much and the pool tech says the new SWG OmniLogic Upgrade Kit I think I'll be buying (the prologic motherboard is burnt out again and the one I sent to OK to get fixed isn't working) won't have as many probs as the prologic did. (I'll be looking that up on here next).

My TFT kit is only a mth or so old. I bought it at the sale. Last year I also bought it at the sale. I have it on my calendar for each year now.

thx for all the other info. as for how I put the stabilizer in the pool, was in a stocking in the skimmer which is how I always do it.
 
I think the part that has gone bad on my prologic, then warranty, then bad again on the new warrantied motherboard is call the relay. pool tech said the new boards don't have the relay which always caused people probs in the heat
 
outdoorsgal said:
Gene, thx for the warm welcome. I thought you were gonna "yell" at me o_O . I was sure I'd get through this "start up" without problems this time.
Click to expand...
Oh, I did - to myself before I responded. :laughblue: Then I shook my head and :brickwall:

outdoorsgal said:
I'm sure I've been told before that the SWG pool needs chlorine in the winter but I didn't remember that. I guess I thought I could time the winter right but I now realize I need to buy pucks or use the extra chlorine
Click to expand...
I know you know that you STILL NEED TO TEST in the winter/off-season. :hammer:

outdoorsgal said:
thx for all the other info. as for how I put the stabilizer in the pool, was in a stocking in the skimmer which is how I always do it.
Click to expand...
Yw - glad you remembered about the sock in the skimmer method to add CYA. (y)
Once it's totally dissolved, you can test maybe 24 hours later.
If your CYA was at least 30 ppm, there is no need to add CYA until AFTER the SLAM Process is complete.

outdoorsgal said:
My TFT kit is only a mth or so old. I bought it at the sale. Last year I also bought it at the sale. I have it on my calendar for each year now.
Click to expand...
Glad you got new reagents in March. Gather up all the old ones and toss them in the trash. (y)
You don't need to empty them if throwing in the regular trash. Empty down the sink (with water running) if you intend to recycle the bottles.

Verify your present CH.
I see in your PoolMath logs you reported CH of 650 and later I see that you may have replaced the pool water. o_O

After you successfully complete the SLAM Process :testkit:
  • You need to actively stay on top of the FC and pH.
  • Your CSI is way too high. You need to adjust pH to account for the high CH reading. Not keeping CSI in check will definitely cause your SWG to scale up with calcium.
  • Once your SWG is operational, increase your CYA to 70 ppm. It's already getting hot and the sun's UV rays getting stronger.
  • Also, keep your salt level on the low side of the SWG range. Our tap water has a bit of salt in it, muriatic acid also adds a little salt and we get very little rain to aid in diluting the pool water to keep the salt level at the optimum levels.
Take the time to get it right - you will actually SAVE time by making the time now. :geek:

Review:
 
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Gene, thx for all of that. most of it I know by now but some of it is new or a good reminder. It was especially helpful to know I didn't have to increase my CYA past 30 if I'm doing a SLAM. I wondered if I should just try to start SLAM with how the CYA was but I remembered always having to get it up to 70 and with my readings all over the place, that made this SLAM harder, too. I'm following all of your advice here and appreciate it. This SLAM has taken a bit this time but that's what I get :). Over the winter I tried to see what you were doing with your pool on the app when I click on your profile as I thought that'd be helpful. Do you know why I can only see the 6 days ago and 22 days ago on your pool? Are you able to see all of my additions, maintenance...?

Also, I bare not ask, but I see you have a Circupool and now I remember that's the salt system I wanted to convert to when mine went. I'm thinking I'm going to just go with what the tech I like to work with wants to sell me cuz we've tried and failed so many times to work on our pool and I appreciate they'll warranty and come and fix stuff at a usually pretty reasonable price (labor part, anyway). I want to make a decision by tomorrow and will see if I can find anything re the Hayward upgrade they are suggesting now.
 
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Gene, I'll retest the CH. I drained the pool last year and then had CH of 275. 5 days ago I got CH 650. That's something else I can't remember. was it by the time it hits CH 800 the pool is really hard to take care of?

I looked at yours and you must've just refilled? I also looked at your TA which is 140 so you are also working towards lowering it? thx
 
outdoorsgal said:
Gene, thx for all of that. most of it I know by now but some of it is new or a good reminder. It was especially helpful to know I didn't have to increase my CYA past 30 if I'm doing a SLAM. I wondered if I should just try to start SLAM with how the CYA was but I remembered always having to get it up to 70 and with my readings all over the place, that made this SLAM harder, too. I'm following all of your advice here and appreciate it. This SLAM has taken a bit this time but that's what I get :). Over the winter I tried to see what you were doing with your pool on the app when I click on your profile as I thought that'd be helpful. Do you know why I can only see the 6 days ago and 22 days ago on your pool? Are you able to see all of my additions, maintenance...?

Also, I bare not ask, but I see you have a Circupool and now I remember that's the salt system I wanted to convert to when mine went. I'm thinking I'm going to just go with what the tech I like to work with wants to sell me cuz we've tried and failed so many times to work on our pool and I appreciate they'll warranty and come and fix stuff at a usually pretty reasonable price (labor part, anyway). I want to make a decision by tomorrow and will see if I can find anything re the Hayward upgrade they are suggesting now.
Click to expand...
It would serve you better to review the articles BEFORE you do anything. Especially the SLAM Process.

I don't have the paid version of the app - so it only shows my most recent test I logged.
And I don't log every test cause mostly I add a little acid and chlorine thru the winter - and I know my pool.

You're already familiar with the Hayward - stick with it.
It doesn't matter if you have a SWG or manually dose FC. You need to make the time to properly manage your pool. You will continue to fail unless you embrace the process and take the time to do it correctly.
Honestly, I spend less than 5 minutes a day and maybe 30 minutes on Saturday to brush - sometimes it's even less time per week. It's easy - you just need to commit.

outdoorsgal said:
Gene, I'll retest the CH. I drained the pool last year and then had CH of 275. 5 days ago I got CH 650. That's something else I can't remember. was it by the time it hits CH 800 the pool is really hard to take care of?

I looked at yours and you must've just refilled? I also looked at your TA which is 140 so you are also working towards lowering it? thx
Click to expand...
You need to take written notes and log stuff in a notebook so you can refer to them. This will help you know EXACTLY when you did something to your pool.

Starting at 275 and now being at 650 is an increase of 375. Throw in the acceptable error of 25 ppm for each of the two tests and you are actually in the ballpark of what those without a water softener plumbed to the autofill can expect to see due to evaporation in the Valley of the Sun. Expect your CH to rise 275 to 400 every year due to evaporation. If you take the time to manage your pool correctly, you can get 2-3 years (maybe even 4) between drain/refill cycles. But you have to stay on top of managing the chemicals - and be more aggressive in keeping the pH a bit lower as the CH climbs. Using PoolMath and playing around with the numbers makes this quite easy.

Yes - I chose to refill this year as it's been over 3 years. I installed the SWG last year and plumbed the water softener to the autofill about 6 months before that. After the SWG install, my CH was 575-ish. This year when I cleaned the filter, my CH only had climbed about 75 ppm to 650. I attribute the increase of 75-ish ppm to using only hard water when I am away for a week or more (as I shut off the softened house water to curb an interior water leak when I'm gone. My goal is to start with a CH of 275 ppm and be able to keep the pH in the 7.7-7.8 range (which just so happens to be about where it likes to settle for my pool). And as soon as I get the TA in the 60-70 range, that will be easy as well.

Take the time EVERY SINGLE DAY and it will keep you out of PANIC MODE. Much less stressful, you will save money and have a much nicer pool as well.
 
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CYA certainly degrades over time. The 50 ppm standard I got from TF Testkits was perfect when I got it in September 2022. By May 2023 it was useless, and that was kept indoors the whole time.
 
proavia said:
It would serve you better to review the articles BEFORE you do anything. Especially the SLAM Process.

I don't have the paid version of the app - so it only shows my most recent test I logged.
And I don't log every test cause mostly I add a little acid and chlorine thru the winter - and I know my pool.

You're already familiar with the Hayward - stick with it.
It doesn't matter if you have a SWG or manually dose FC. You need to make the time to properly manage your pool. You will continue to fail unless you embrace the process and take the time to do it correctly.
Honestly, I spend less than 5 minutes a day and maybe 30 minutes on Saturday to brush - sometimes it's even less time per week. It's easy - you just need to commit.


You need to take written notes and log stuff in a notebook so you can refer to them. This will help you know EXACTLY when you did something to your pool.

Starting at 275 and now being at 650 is an increase of 375. Throw in the acceptable error of 25 ppm for each of the two tests and you are actually in the ballpark of what those without a water softener plumbed to the autofill can expect to see due to evaporation in the Valley of the Sun. Expect your CH to rise 275 to 400 every year due to evaporation. If you take the time to manage your pool correctly, you can get 2-3 years (maybe even 4) between drain/refill cycles. But you have to stay on top of managing the chemicals - and be more aggressive in keeping the pH a bit lower as the CH climbs. Using PoolMath and playing around with the numbers makes this quite easy.

Yes - I chose to refill this year as it's been over 3 years. I installed the SWG last year and plumbed the water softener to the autofill about 6 months before that. After the SWG install, my CH was 575-ish. This year when I cleaned the filter, my CH only had climbed about 75 ppm to 650. I attribute the increase of 75-ish ppm to using only hard water when I am away for a week or more (as I shut off the softened house water to curb an interior water leak when I'm gone. My goal is to start with a CH of 275 ppm and be able to keep the pH in the 7.7-7.8 range (which just so happens to be about where it likes to settle for my pool). And as soon as I get the TA in the 60-70 range, that will be easy as well.

Take the time EVERY SINGLE DAY and it will keep you out of PANIC MODE. Much less stressful, you will save money and have a much nicer pool as well.
Click to expand...
thx Gene! All helpful info. :)
 
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RickRude said:
CYA certainly degrades over time. The 50 ppm standard I got from TF Testkits was perfect when I got it in September 2022. By May 2023 it was useless, and that was kept indoors the whole time.
Click to expand...
that's helpful, thx.
not even a year out of your TF kit? That's not good. I wonder why a whole kit went bad before a year or are you just talking about the reagant to measure cya? Has that happened before
 
outdoorsgal said:
that's helpful, thx.
not even a year out of your TF kit? That's not good. I wonder why a whole kit went bad before a year or are you just talking about the reagant to measure cya? Has that happened before
Click to expand...
He is referring to a standard solution that helps determine when the CYA tube dot disappears. The solution supposedly has 50 ppm CYA so you can see what that looks like when the tube is filled to 50 ppm.

As I recall, others have had varied results from the CYA standard solution in past years.
For me, back to the sun, pour to the lines on the tube, hold tube at waist level and GLANCE into the open end of the tube. Once the dot disappears I round up to the next larger number. If the dot isn't visible at 40, round up to 50.
And if in doubt, use the next higher number - so if you "think" the CYA is 40 but not 100% confident, use a CYA of 50 for daily dosing. It will provide a little buffer and won't increase your FC needs appreciably.

Too many many stress over the CYA test and when the dot disappears.
Don't stare, just glance.
 
Last edited:
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RickRude said:
CYA certainly degrades over time. The 50 ppm standard I got from TF Testkits was perfect when I got it in September 2022. By May 2023 it was useless, and that was kept indoors the whole time.
Click to expand...
Hello, this may be due to insufficient mixing of the reagent PRIOR to adding to the mixing bottle. It’s a little late now but I would be happy to include extra standard on your next order with us. Just let me know.

On the other hand the CYA reagent R-0013 is quite stable. We don’t print lot information or best by dates on our bottles but you can email us for that information. [email protected]

Nate @ TFT
 
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Sarah and Nate said:
Hello, this may be due to insufficient mixing of the reagent PRIOR to adding to the mixing bottle. It’s a little late now but I would be happy to include extra standard on your next order with us. Just let me know.

On the other hand the CYA reagent R-0013 is quite stable. We don’t print lot information or best by dates on our bottles but you can email us for that information. [email protected]

Nate @ TFT
Click to expand...
thx. Do you mean I need to shake the bottle prior to adding it to the mixing bottle? If so, I've never done that and missed that so that's good to know. today's test was up to 60 CYA so I'll wait to add anymore stabilizer until I speak with Dave. I think most of the confusion was from me not realizing so much CYA is eaten up by the sun. That made me feel much better to hear that. according to mcknauss' numbers, that makes perfect sense and I should be on target, I think.
 
outdoorsgal said:
thx. Do you mean I need to shake the bottle prior to adding it to the mixing bottle? If so, I've never done that and missed that so that's good to know. today's test was up to 60 CYA so I'll wait to add anymore stabilizer until I speak with Dave. I think most of the confusion was from me not realizing so much CYA is eaten up by the sun. That made me feel much better to hear that. according to mcknauss' numbers, that makes perfect sense and I should be on target, I think.
Click to expand...
Nope, Nate was replying to RickRude, not you.
There is no need to shake the R-0013 reagent.
  • Following the directions, add the pool water to the mixing bottle, add the R-0013.
  • Put the top on the mixing bottle.
  • Invert the mixing bottle 4-5 times (no need the "shake").
  • Let the mixing bottle sit for 30 seconds or so.
  • Before pouring any liquid out of the mixing bottle into the test tube, mix again by inverting the mixing bottle 4-5 times.
  • Start the test.
  • You can run the test multiple times with the same sample. Just mix the solution in the mixing bottle again.
Let us know what Dave has to say.
 

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