Remodeling - Equipment Side - Where to invest?

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ShakataGaNai

ShakataGaNai

Member
Jun 28, 2023
8
Walnut Creek, CA
Pool Size
12500
Surface
Plaster
Today: In ground plaster pool from roughly the 70s - lots of plaster issues, some patches failed and otherwise. Black algae. Approximately 12,000 gallons. San Francisco Bay Area. Roof top solar heating (a couple years old) w/ a new Pentair VSF pump and Pentair SolarTouch controller. PB4-60 Pressure side booster I installed myself last year. Polaris Quattro P40 Cleaner I just bought a month ago - so far I love this thing. Betta SE (2023 Model) that does a solid job.

Me: I'm not an idiot, I like DIY to an extent, but I also have a new baby. I've had pools basically my entire life but growing up, to be honest, I don't think my dad really knew what he was doing. I'm trying to take care of things myself but the chemical side I've not been doing great - working on it though. Last year I tried to hire a pool company and that was a total Darn show who left the pool in worse condition after 2 months then we started. And that was after they insisted we drain and refill the pool to get started.

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Equipment Etc Photos

So finally... we're getting the pool remodeled: replacing the coping (to flagstone), new tile, and plaster with WetEdge Signature Matrix pebble finish. During that work, they're going to replace the skimmer (old and kind of busted), upgrade the main drain to split (code?), replace the light with LED, and add a safety fence.

All of that is fine and dandy, but my question is where to spend the money (if any) on equipment upgrades. They suggested:
  • Replacing my old Pentair CC2420 filter with a Jandy CL460 ($1700) - since I don't love the fiberglass dust I get on me everytime I get near that thing, seems like a good option.
  • Bioshield UV Sanitizer ($1600) - The general sell on this is "Less chlorine required, less bad stuff in pool". Yes, I've read how TFP feels about the promises of less/no sanitizer. These things may work? They may be useful? They definitely aren't cheap to run due to replacement bulbs.
  • Tab Feeder ($350) - The sales guy said that floaters aren't as good as a tab feeder. Can build up chlorine in one spot, yada yada.
Initially this all made sense to me... but after a lot of reading on reddit and TFP, the UV and Tab Feeder seem... more meh? Should I get them? Dump them and do something else instead? Skip it all together?

I started reading about Hasa Liquid Feeder as a better alternative. Also I know that salt water and SWG's are a thing, but that maybe the cells are hard to get still? Also the Pentair IntelliChem has come up in my reading, more expensive than I might otherwise consider but if that ~$2k unit replace the $1600 UV thing, then it's not so bad. I'm trying not to drive my project costs up into the roof with equipment but if there are a few small tweaks I can make now - this seems like the most opertune time to do so.

Appreciate anyone/everyone input. Even the harsh lessons!
 
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Hey Shakata and belated Welcome !!!!


UV devices are to help with your algae problem. We don't have algae at TFP, nor do we find it acceptable to have like the industry does.

Algae while unsightly is harmless. But it's the canary in the coal mine. If it can grow, so can the bacteria, viruses and pathogens to make you sick. Swimmer to swimmer transmissions are your biggest worry and if you're swimming with friends/family, the day (or days) some of that water will take to go though the UV/Ozone device does you no favors.

Those that need algae control have unsanitary pools. There is no two ways about it. If they had a sanitary pool, then the UV or Ozone device is entirely redundant on an outdoor residential pool. They use the device to keep the algae at bay so it appears they need less chlorine and use less accordingly. But if you hop in the underchlorinated pool at any moment, it is unsanitary. Again. There are no two ways about that.


SWGs on the other hand create residual sanitizer and sanitize every gallon, not just the half gallon flowing through the machine this moment. With a full sun pool, I get 12 weeks without a SWG adjustment now. With my old half shade pool it was 2 to 6 weeks per adjustment.
 
ShakataGaNai said:
upgrade the main drain to split (code?)
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I would seal the main drain and add a second skimmer (if possible). You don't need a main drain.

ShakataGaNai said:
replacing the coping (to flagstone)
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You may want to consider a sturdier material. Flagstone quality varies considerably.

ShakataGaNai said:
Bioshield UV Sanitizer ($1600) - The general sell on this is "Less chlorine required, less bad stuff in pool".
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Definitely skip this. You get plenty of free UV from the sun. Chlorine is the "good stuff" and is essential to a sanitary pool.

ShakataGaNai said:
Tab Feeder ($350)
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You don't want this either.

ShakataGaNai said:
Pentair IntelliChem
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Don't spend your scarce renovation money on this. Put all that saved money into a quality test kit (TFtestkits.net) and a SWCG or LC feeder.

(Side note from your pictures: you want Magic Lube II, which comes with red lettering.)
 
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Newdude said:
Those that need algae control have unsanitary pools. There is no two ways about it. If they had a sanitary pool, then the UV or Ozone device is entirely redundant on an outdoor residential pool.
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Ok. I get the logic. I did read a lot about UV here on TFP (and elsewhere) before I asked. But that's probably the most succinct answer I've seen.
Newdude said:
SWGs on the other hand create residual sanitizer and sanitize every gallon, not just the half gallon flowing through the machine this moment.
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So if I'm reading between the lines here, you suggestion would be to skip basically all the misc stuff I mentioned and just go to SWG. Is there still a concern about cells? Availability? Something similar?
pjt said:
I would seal the main drain and add a second skimmer (if possible). You don't need a main drain.
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We're not replacing the decking, so a second skimmer isn't an option. Every company in the area I spoke to here said I needed to split the drain, so I guess that's really my only option for now.

pjt said:
Put all that saved money into a quality test kit (TFtestkits.net) and a SWCG or LC feeder.
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Ok. So look at SWG will do. What is an LC Feeder? That's not a term I'm finding a lot on. Oh, and I did get a Taylor K-2006 last later summer after the failed pool company adventure.
 
ShakataGaNai said:
So if I'm reading between the lines here, you suggestion would be to skip basically all the misc stuff I mentioned and just go to SWG.
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I am 1000% saying skip everything and get a SWG.
ShakataGaNai said:
there still a concern about cells? Availability? Something similar?
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None whatsoever. If you have or will ever automate, stick with Pentair. The ROI is there to get the IC40 instead of the IC20. It's 20% more for basically two IC20s. You have a long season in sunny CA and will use the lifespan before me in NY.

If no automation, then Circupool cells are great.
ShakataGaNai said:
What is an LC Feeder
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A big tank for bleach/liquid chlorine. You still buy, lug and load the jugs, but then it dispenses it for you daily with a small pump, to however much you tell it to.
ShakataGaNai said:
Oh, and I did get a Taylor K-2006 last later summer after the failed pool company adventure.
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When it expires go to tftestkits.net. their 2 kits are hands down better values than Taylor's comps. Both use the same Taylor drops. The TF100 for example has 2.7 X the same supplies as the k2006 for the same money.

The tfpro includes a $44 stirring device, a nice case, and better proportioned supplies for how we do things, for the same price as the K2006C.

I honestly don't know why anyone even considers the Taylor kits.
 
Newdude said:
I am 1000% saying skip everything and get a SWG.
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I called my remodel company and spoke to them. They've removed the UV and Tab filter, but he said that an SWG will be corrosive to copper pipes. Unfortunately, my return line at ground level is copper (it's been painted black, but it's 100% copper for sure. I replaced the booster inlet stuff myself). I guess I'm SOL on that front.

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Newdude said:
When it expires go to tftestkits.net. .... I honestly don't know why anyone even considers the Taylor kits.
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Will do. I had to buy more reagent, so I understand. I don't know where I saw the recommendation previously, but that's ok.

Live and learn!
 
ShakataGaNai said:
I don't know where I saw the recommendation previously, but that's ok.
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Back in the day, the TF100 had better division of supplies and the K2006C had a nicer case, for the same money. Once the TFpro came out and Taylor's costs went up considerably, there's a new equation.

ShakataGaNai said:
he said that an SWG will be corrosive to copper pipes. Unfortunately, my return line at ground level is copper (it's been painted black, but it's 100% copper for sure. I replaced the booster inlet stuff myself). I guess I'm SOL on that front.
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When did you drain last ? For giggles, go to a poolstore to test for salt. If you're already there or pretty close, then it's no different.

If they test above 2k, then invest $30 in a k1766 to get a more accurate reading.
 
ShakataGaNai said:
I called my remodel company and spoke to them. They've removed the UV and Tab filter, but he said that an SWG will be corrosive to copper pipes. Unfortunately, my return line at ground level is copper (it's been painted black, but it's 100% copper for sure. I replaced the booster inlet stuff myself). I guess I'm SOL on that front.

View attachment 562083
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@JoyfulNoise what are you thoughts about SWG salt levels with copper pipes in the pool?

@ShakataGaNai your pool can easily have as much salt as a SWG pool. Every form of chlorine you use includes salt as does muriatic acid. Over time the salt accumulates, especially in areas that don't winterize and drain their pool annually.

Additionally gas heat exchangers are made of copper and they survive in SWG pools.
 
Newdude said:
When did you drain last ?
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Brought in a pool company last spring who insisted you needed to drain/refill every 5 years at most. I didn't know any better, so I let them start there. Then everything went to Darn with them and I fired them and really got serious about learning things. So it's been not even a year since it was fully drained.

Now, of course, I'm reading all about copper pipe lifespan in pools and am getting worried. The pool is roughly from the 70s, so.... that pipe might be on is last legs. Is Cure In Place Pipe lining for pools a thing?

Edit: Unfortunately, the copper is more than just a few feet. I followed it down 2' until it made a turn, but that was still copper as well. My $30 snake camera for Amazon won't make the turn. The copper is clearly pitted on the inside. I'm sure there was plenty of time the water quality wasn't well maintained, which doesn't bode well for me.
 
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I wouldn’t add an SWG to a pool with copper pipes. You could create galvanic corrosion depending on if the pipes are properly bonded or not. It’s just too much of a risk. A pool that old needs to be renovated with new plumbing lines run to it. I doubt seal in place liners will work well for pool plumbing.

You’ll have to use a liquid chlorine feeder. That puts you at the mercy of pricing LC, hauling it, and filling a tank. Either that or you add the SWG and pray your pipes hold out.

No easy solutions unfortunately.
 

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JoyfulNoise said:
I wouldn’t add an SWG to a pool with copper pipes. You could create galvanic corrosion depending on if the pipes are properly bonded or not. It’s just too much of a risk. A pool that old needs to be renovated with new plumbing lines run to it. I doubt seal in place liners will work well for pool plumbing.

You’ll have to use a liquid chlorine feeder. That puts you at the mercy of pricing LC, hauling it, and filling a tank. Either that or you add the SWG and pray your pipes hold out.

No easy solutions unfortunately.
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Thanks! I kind of figured that was the case. It's good to know, though; I learned a LOT today - which is extremely useful. Also until your message here I still was at a loss for what "LC" meant... PEBKAC. I've got it now and I understand. That will probably be my plan. It'll just be a question of something like the not-amazing-but-functional Hasa... or full blown automation with Stenner.
 
The split drain thing is likely building code, either local or State. They can't remodel your pool without upgrading the drain to two drains. But...

That doesn't mean you can't get rid of it. Do you know: is your drain even doing anything? Does water flow through it?

Drains are a throwback to before pool cleaners were a thing. You'd brush or vacuum your pool manually, shoving gunk down to the drain, where it would get sucked into the filter. You don't actually use a drain for draining.

When I re-finished (pebbled) my pool, I had them just fill in my drains (I had two). And they fit eye-ball (adjustable direction) returns where there were none before. I only have one skimmer, and losing the drains did absolutely nothing to my circulation. But the eyeballs improved it dramatically, and completely eliminated the cold spots I once had. So the sum-total is way better circulation without the drains!

Drains are dangerous (potentially, even two), unsightly, and potentially a toe-stubbing or vacuum-hanging hazard. Save the money they'll charge you to retrofit drains and just have them plaster the old one shut. That should cost nothing. Then cap off the other end, wherever it might be. Mine was in my skimmer, so I just used an expandable rubber stopper.

I love the clean look, and trouble-free vacuuming (my suction-side vac used to get stranded atop the drain cover). Scooping leaves and brushing are now obstacle free. And now I don't worry about my long-haired precious one as she explorers the depths retrieving the tossy rings.
 
ShakataGaNai said:
Every company in the area I spoke to here said I needed to split the drain, so I guess that's really my only option for now.
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@Dirk covered everything in the post above. I was suggesting removing the main drain entirely when you renovate. A main drain is like the intestinal appendix: it doesn't really do anything, has the potential to cause severe problems, and you can live just fine without it. My pool was built without a main drain and I'm very happy with that decision. Zero entrapment risk, zero plumbing leak risk, simpler plumbing, and maximum skimmer suction.
 
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Dirk said:
That doesn't mean you can't get rid of it. Do you know: is your drain even doing anything? Does water flow through it?
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Unfortunately I do not know. It's at the bottom of the deep end, which is 8' deep. Never gone down there to poke at it.
Dirk said:
Then cap off the other end, wherever it might be.
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There is only one pipe in my skimmer that I can see, so I have no idea where this join is. My remodel is not digging up the surrounding concrete decking, so there is very limited ability to figure out and change some of these items. Doing all the concrete work would double the project price and that was in no way going to be doable.

The drain doesn't visually bother me and it's not anywhere someone stands or walks. My In Law's have a 4' or 5' flat depth pool and has dual drains, and I totally get what you're saying about being a toe stubber. I accept the fact that it may no longer be necessary, but the cost to split it is very minimal, and the headache of changing things that don't need to be changed isn't worth it to my mental load.

That all being said, I really appreciate all the feedback. I might come back here in a few months time and tell you what a mistake a made and I should have listened. But at least it'll have been my choice rather than just blindly following what I was quoted.
 
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Just to be clear, if you don't already have eye-ball returns, or don't happen to know what those are, do look into that. Mine were installed as part of the refinish. They didn't have to dig up the deck, it was all done from inside the pool. And it made a huge difference to my circulation.

At some point, you should figure out how your drain(s) are connected to your plumbing. If you only have one hole in the bottom of your skimmer, then the drain is likely connected at the pad, via a dedicated valve. While I don't agree with your decision to leave the drains in, if you have a dedicated valve, you can render your drains safe by just turning them off when you want to, or permanently.

It's possible that they are hard-plumbed to the suction line, underground somewhere. But that would be an exception to how it's normally done. I dunno, maybe that was common "back in the day."

Do you have more than one pipe coming out of the ground at your pad that leads into your pump? If so, one is likely the skimmer, the other the drain. If you only have one pipe, then it's either connected to the skimmer, or underground. If you're not sure, post a few pics of the plumbing at your pad and we can help you sort it out.
 
Dirk said:
At some point, you should figure out how your drain(s) are connected to your plumbing. If you only have one hole in the bottom of your skimmer, then the drain is likely connected at the pad, via a dedicated valve. While I don't agree with your decision to leave the drains in, if you have a dedicated valve, you can render your drains safe by just turning them off when you want to, or permanently.

It's possible that they are hard-plumbed to the suction line, underground somewhere. But that would be an exception to how it's normally done. I dunno, maybe that was common "back in the day."

Do you have more than one pipe coming out of the ground at your pad that leads into your pump? If so, one is likely the skimmer, the other the drain. If you only have one pipe, then it's either connected to the skimmer, or underground. If you're not sure, post a few pics of the plumbing at your pad and we can help you sort it out.
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The pipes are joined somewhere underground. There is only a single return line on the pad. There is no second hole/pipe/widget/dodad in the skimmer.

I conducted a highly scientific and specialized test, I put a trashbag in the water and pushed it into the main drain to see if it would get stuck to the bottom. Spoilers: it did stick. The pressure at the filter dropped some. I also tested the skimmer by plugging that and, again, the pressure at the filter again dropped a few PSI. Plug both at the same time? Zero PSI at the filter. (yes, I know this is way bad for the pump, I did it for literally one second as I could see the filter gauge while standing at the skimmer.)

So that confirms that both the main drain works, and it's plumbed out of reach and there is nothing I can do about it.

Dirk said:
Just to be clear, if you don't already have eye-ball returns, or don't happen to know what those are, do look into that. Mine were installed as part of the refinish. They didn't have to dig up the deck, it was all done from inside the pool. And it made a huge difference to my circulation.
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As for the eyeball returns, I have 1.5 of those currently (1 is still a functional eyeball, 1 has most of the pipe pieces ... but not the eyeball itself - so half, 1 return has no pipe or eyeball anymore). I will double check with the pool company that they will install those. I understand that fluids cannot be pulled, only pushed (blowing vs sucking out a candle), so the main drain is useless when it comes to circulation.
 
ShakataGaNai said:
I understand that fluids cannot be pulled, only pushed (blowing vs sucking out a candle), so the main drain is useless when it comes to circulation.
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That is exactly right.

ShakataGaNai said:
I will double check with the pool company that they will install those.
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Do. Mine were just sawed-off PVC pipe, flush with the plaster. They pointed where they pointed! After chipping out the plaster, I think they dug out some of the gunite, just enough to access the pipe enough to glue on the eyeballs. They should be able to do the same for you.
 
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