Why So Few Heat Pumps

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zackbloom

New member
Jan 6, 2024
1
Finland
This is a general curiosity I have after reading too many TFP build threads. Why do so many people install Natural Gas heaters and/or Chillers, when affordable pool heat pumps exist?

By my accounting you can get a pool heat pump for between $500-$2500 which will have a capacity up to 21 kW. They can both heat and cool the pool, and are up to 10x more efficient than using gas alone. This is even more true in a lot of the climates where people seem to be using heaters, where it’s already fairly warm out.

Why do so few people seem to choose them?
 
Don't know, but I'm looking at a couple different heat pumps trying to decide BTU. is BIGGER always BETTER? My pool is only 11,000 gallons.... I was looking at a 110,000 BTU heat pump which will heat "up to 25,000 gallons" according to website, or for another $400, I could step up to a 137,000 BTU which heats "up to 45,000 gallons".... Obviously I know there is more that goes into determining what one should use, like surface area of water. Thoughts or Opinions?
 
Those with spas don't want to wait for the HP to raise the temp everytime.

Those in cooler climates want a longer season with a gas heater.

Those in dry climates don't have the humidity for the HP to work efficiently.

Large pools need large BTUs to match and a gas heater has 3X the BTUs.

HPs excel at warming an already warm pool. Gas heaters excel at extending the season or heating the water quickly. In a perfect world, everybody would get both, but most have to choose.
 
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Riverhog14 said:
is BIGGER always BETTER?
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Yes, Bigger is always BETTER! Buy the biggest heat pump you can, regardless of pool size. My pool is a little under 7K gallons, and I have the biggest heat pump Hayward makes, a 144K BTU heat pump. Why? I'll list a number of reasons:
  1. Look at the efficiency numbers for heat pumps from any manufacturer. The biggest heat pump is also the most efficient, so it costs less to run in the long run.
  2. The larger heat pump will heat your pool up faster, and will also run less to maintain your pool temp. This will increase the longevity of your heat pump.
  3. In the colder months, the larger heat pump will provide those valuable extra BTU's you may need to hit the pool temps you want.
  4. The difference in cost is pretty small, usually less than $500 to go to the larger heat pump.
I've had a pool for 40 years, and one thing I've found is that you can never have too big of a heater. But, if it's too small there is no cheap fix.
 
Being in Finland changes the calculations somewhat. There are many reasons -

  • In some parts of the USA, like where I live, natural gas can be as much as 3X cheaper than electricity on an equivalent energy basis. We already run expensive AC units all summer long, and so adding another electric guzzling heat pump simply adds to the on-going expense. (And don’t start up on solar PV nonsense … it’s a non-starter for many homeowners).
  • Gas heaters are much easier to diagnose and repair than heat pumps. While there is a plentiful supply of HVAC contractors that will work on your household heat pump system, few to none of them will touch pool equipment. So finding help when the HP fails can be costly and difficult.
  • Gas heat is On-Demand heating that the user controls. Many gas heater owners like the flexibility of only needing to turn on the heater when it’s desired (along with the pool pump) rather than having a piece of equipment running all the time.
  • Gas heaters have much higher BTU/hr ratings than HP’s and so they will heat a body of water faster. Many pools have attached spas and no one wants to wait 45mins to an hour for the spa to heat up. My gas heater can heat up my 700gal spa in about 10-15mins.

Those are just a few reasons.
 
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Availability of the input source often also comes into play. In my old house, I paid a couple thousand to upgrade my main electric panel to allow the HP so it would have been an even swap to purchase a gas tank to go with a gas heater. But in my current house, the electric panel is already larger and it would have been cheaper to go HP than get a gas heater and tank. Running a larger electric line to the pad may be cheaper than running a gas line if it isn't close. That's just the install costs to weigh.

For usage, propane which needs deliveries is more expensive than natural gas from the street with an endless supply. So sometimes people would have gone NG but don't want the added expense of using propane and that overrides the gas heater being better suited for them than a HP.

There's just a bunch of factors and it's miserable to decide for most. Lol. Everybody has to pick what's more important to them whether install cost, effectiveness or long term usage cost.
 
Everyone's needs are different, but for me (and many others), a gas heater makes a lot more sense.

I can heat my integrated spa in 15-45 minutes with my 400k BTU gas heater, depending on the starting water temperature, any day of the year. A heat pump would take hours to do so during the winter.

Extending the pool season isn't a big deal for me, as our pool season without the use of the heater is already quite long, April-October. A heat pump might give me an extra month on either end, but I'm not keen enough on swimming in March or November to spend the $. I might heat the pool for one weekend during those two months - the gas heater is an expensive way to do so, but at least it can do it (heats the pool at 1-2 degrees/hour).

I would probably only consider a heat pump if I had no spa and no natural gas available on the property.
 
It was an easy choice for me. I had gas service, I wanted to be able to heat the spa rapidly, and gas here is much cheaper.
 
"Finland has become a trailblazer in adoption of heat pumps, with more installed per capita than any other European country last year.

According to the European Heat Pump Association (EHPA), nearly 70 heat pumps per thousand households were sold in Finland, followed by Norway with 60 per thousand.

Norway had been number one in the comparison the previous year.

The next-highest adopting countries were neighboring Sweden, Estonia and Denmark, followed by France.

Nearly 200,000 heat pumps were sold in Finland last year, up by more than half from the previous year.

The rush for installations was driven by higher energy prices."

yle.fi

Finland becomes a European leader in heat pump adoption

According to the European Heat Pump Association, the popularity of the low-emission devices has been spurred by climate concerns and Russia's attack on Ukraine.
yle.fi yle.fi
 
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"Sales of heat pumps grew last year by 50% in Finland, according to the Finnish Heat Pump Association (SULPU).

In 2022, a total of 196,000 heat pumps were sold.

The number of air-to-air heat pumps sold was 160,000.

As for air-to-water heat pumps, sales grew by almost 60% and 19,000 pumps were installed.

The sales of ground-source heat pumps increased by about 20 percent, with 12,000 pumps sold.

The sales volume of exhaust-air heat pumps for single-family houses fell by 20% – this was the only sector that saw a decline."

www.ehpa.org

In Finland heat pumps sales increased 50% in 2022 - European Heat Pump Association

Sales of heat pumps grew last year by 50% in Finland, according to the Finnish […]
www.ehpa.org www.ehpa.org
 
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Many people just do not really know how to evaluate heating and cooling costs including the installation and operation costs over long periods.

Ground source heat pumps can be a good choice for colder climates if the ground has enough heat.

There is a large upfront cost to install the ground loops, but there can be a long term payback.

As more people get solar, you might see an increase in heat pump use and you might see more investment in ground source if the costs for the ground loops go down.
 
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JamesW said:
Many people just do not really know how to evaluate heating and cooling costs including the installation and operation costs over long periods.
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I wad going to say the same. The majority of people just go with whatever the PB wants to install. Very few of them land on TFP or elsewhere to learn the differences.
 
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Newdude said:
The majority of people just go with whatever the PB wants to install. Very few of them land on TFP or elsewhere to learn the differences.
Click to expand...
…. until after their pool is built and they are stuck with the prior decisions.
 
ajw22 said:
until after their pool is built and they are stuck with the prior decisions.
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I speak from experience. :ROFLMAO:

I had a 2 min convo with my PB on build #1 and he pushed me to a 120k HP on a 35k pool in NY. We were extend the season people and not make the pool 90 in August people and it didn't suit out needs most years.
 
Here in Canada almost all of the heaters that you see are natural gas, at least around Toronto. Gas is normally cheaper, but that may be changing. We have a carbon tax that is increasing each year, so in the next few years that can flip-flop and gas may become more expensive (the carbon tax may be abolished if our government changes after the next election). And you can go on electricity rate plans that are very inexpensive overnight, like the ULO plan. But the main downside is that heat pumps are slower to heat your pool. That should matter less if you keep it covered, but covers can be a pain.
 
As someone said you go with what the pb says because after all he knows best which isn't always the true. Case in point a new client last year with a large gunnite auto covered pool about 10 years old has a HP. I said to him why a hp. He says that's what the pb wanted but the customer isn't happy as far as shoulder swimming use . He said they can't open super early or close super late but they manage the max. The pool is atleast 100 feet from the house so at this point he doesn't feel like running a gas line but I think he may do it one day anyway.
 
I agree that anywhere in the northern regions the only real solution is a natural gas heater. In Michigan, I had a 42K gallon pool, and I ran a natural gas heater as it was the only thing that would heat a pool that size in that climate to extend the season.

When I moved to Georgia, the builder installed a heat pump for my 18K gallon pool, and while it worked fine in late spring and early fall, it ran most of the day to keep up.

Fast forward to Florida - my pool is only 7K gallons and the heat pump has no issue heating the pool at any time of the year. Electricity here is much cheaper than natural gas (on a $$/BTU table) and it works great here! The other issue I would have had here in FL is that my area does not offer natural gas - propane is even more expensive, and with my small lot, a pig would have looked very ugly and couldn't be hidden.

We were gone for a bit, and I turned on my heater yesterday at around noon. Water was 62 degrees. It's now at 82 and will reach 89 most likely by noon today!
 
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