PB Pushing to Change Plumbing Design

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Glitterbub

Silver Supporter
Jul 15, 2023
41
Oklahoma
Pool Size
16000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
During the planning process we had philosophically agreed on the plumbing design. We would have two pumps - a very large one for spa circulation only - no filter - no heater. Just suck water in and spit it back out at high flow into the spa. A second pump would do "everything else." This would be for filtration of spa and pool, heat and heated water circulation of spa and pool, two bubblers. The smaller pump would also feed a corner 24" spa spillover as a return. This is planned to be a 7x7 spa, 16' x34' pool (water). We don't plan on running the waterfall a lot.

Now that we're in construction the PB wants to change things a bit. He wants the large pump to be for "everything." The smaller pump will be for the bubblers and the spa spillover, effectively making it a water feature pump. All returns, including spa jets will run through the filter and heater. Max flow rate through filter is 150GPM. Through filter is 125GPM.

Spa has 10 jets total over 6 positions. There are two his/her locations with 3 jets each. We plan on using two of these: Thread-in Jet Manifolds - Waterway Plastics.

There seems to be lots of caution here about running the spa through filtration and heater for flow. We also have some high flow jets planned - thus the reason to upgrade to the larger pump and why we designed it the first way. The PB is pushing back saying if something gets sucked up it will get through the system and damage things- that's why they run all returns through filtration.

Any thoughts? I've attached what was the scheduled design which closely matches what Hayward recommends in its paperwork. Also attached.
 

Attachments

  • Plumbing Hayward Design.png
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  • Plumbing 2023.08.07.png
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Both pumps shown in your second image are 2.7hp pumps.
Get exact module numbers for each and post them here.
What is the price difference between the pumps?

In the second image, on the suction side of your pool plumbing, have them home run each skimmer and the main drain to the pad - and install Jandy type valves to control each line. This will provide more versatility for you long term.

Post a full set of the current proposed equipment, including model numbers.

The two images you posted show different plumbing layouts and equipment.
Which the the correct image?
 
Glitterbub said:
There seems to be lots of caution here about running the spa through filtration and heater for flow. We also have some high flow jets planned - thus the reason to upgrade to the larger pump and why we designed it the first way.
Click to expand...
Rightfully so. Spa jets generally don't work as well when flow goes through the filter and heater. A standalone spa jet pump is a better option. I would push for the standalone jet pump.

Glitterbub said:
The PB is pushing back saying if something gets sucked up it will get through the system and damage things- that's why they run all returns through filtration.
Click to expand...
Anything large is caught by the pump basket mesh and anything smaller than the basket mesh passes right through and out the jets. Plus the suction side of the jet pump is in the floor or bottom wall so it is less likely to get larger debris like a skimmer would. This is the way my spa is plumbed and I have never had any issues over 18 years of ownership.

Also, 10 spa jets usually requires quite a bit of flow. Do you know if these are 10 GPM or 15 GPM or 25 GPM jets?
 
proavia said:
Both pumps shown in your second image are 2.7hp pumps.
Get exact module numbers for each and post them here.
What is the price difference between the pumps?

In the second image, on the suction side of your pool plumbing, have them home run each skimmer and the main drain to the pad - and install Jandy type valves to control each line. This will provide more versatility for you long term.

Post a full set of the current proposed equipment, including model numbers.

The two images you posted show different plumbing layouts and equipment.
Which the the correct image?
Click to expand...

Equipment:
W3SP3206VSP Hayward Tri-Star V.S 2.7HP Pool Pump
HCP3020VSP 2.7XL Spa Pump
C4030 Hayward Swimclear Multi 425 THP Cartridge Filter
Hayward HLBASE Omnilogic Automation System w/ Salt Cell
30060 Hayward Booster Pump,
Hayward H400FDN 400K Heater.

Price difference: I'd have to dig to find out- I remember the XL chart meeting the flow per the head I calculated.

One of the images is from the Hayward manual as a suggested way to hook everything up. If you take out the items that I don't have it is pretty much exact to the "Plumbing 2023.08.07" which was what I thought we were doing.

mas985 said:
Rightfully so. Spa jets generally don't work as well when flow goes through the filter and heater. A standalone spa jet pump is a better option. I would push for the standalone jet pump.


Anything large is caught by the pump basket mesh and anything smaller than the basket mesh passes right through and out the jets. Plus the suction side of the jet pump is in the floor or bottom wall so it is less likely to get larger debris like a skimmer would. This is the way my spa is plumbed and I have never had any issues over 18 years of ownership.

Also, 10 spa jets usually requires quite a bit of flow. Do you know if these are 10 GPM or 15 GPM or 25 GPM jets?
Click to expand...

I planned for 15 GPM jets.
 
Stick to your guns and have a dedicated spa jet pump.
 
Glitterbub said:
I planned for 15 GPM jets.
Click to expand...
10*15 is 150 GPM. Neither pump will produce that much on typical plumbing through a filter and heater.

The XL will come close but not if it is going through a filter and heater. Also, 15 GPM jets usually operate at 16 PSI which is 37' of head. That means to maintain 150 GPM, the rest of the plumbing needs to be below 13' of head so 4" pipe is probably going to be needed in order to keep water velocity < 6ft/sec.
 
JamesW said:
View attachment 536417


www.pentair.com

WhisperFloXF® VS 5HP Variable Speed Pump

The WhisperFloXF VS 5HP Commercial Pump is the first five-horsepower variable-speed pool pump that runs on single-phase or three-phase power.
www.pentair.com www.pentair.com

Click to expand...
Unfortunately my guy is Hayward only. He can "get" anything I want, but he's really a Hayward dealer.
 
mas985 said:
10*15 is 150 GPM. Neither pump will produce that much on typical plumbing through a filter and heater.

The XL will come close but not if it is going through a filter and heater. Also, 15 GPM jets usually operate at 16 PSI which is 37' of head. That means to maintain 150 GPM, the rest of the plumbing needs to be below 13' of head so 4" pipe is probably going to be needed in order to keep water velocity < 6ft/sec.
Click to expand...

Agree. 125GPM is the theoretical max through the heater in perfect conditions. We have the drains plummed up with 3" right now because that's what the XL will fit without a reducer at the pump. Sounds like I was pushing it with 3" and no heater. So adding a filter and heater will definitely slow things down beyond what is appropriate.
 
Glitterbub said:
Agree. 125GPM is the theoretical max through the heater in perfect conditions. We have the drains plummed up with 3" right now because that's what the XL will fit without a reducer at the pump. Sounds like I was pushing it with 3" and no heater. So adding a filter and heater will definitely slow things down beyond what is appropriate.
Click to expand...
Maybe put a valve on some of the jets to give you the option to turn them off so the flow is directed to a select few?
 

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Finally had some time to look over the designs in detail. Original Proposed (Owner) vs. PB Proposed attached.

Here were the original use cases:
1. Spa heat only
2. Pool heat only
3. Spa and Pool Heat
4. Turn on/off deck jets
5. Turn on/off bubblers
6. Turn on/off pressure side vac
7. Spa to pool spillway on/off
8. Filter spa while spa in use (want to be able to replenish FC)

Spa and Pool Heat: Is this possible in this setup or do I risk draining the spa?

I think I can get to all my use cases- still have concern about jet flow.

How does non-aerated water get to the spa? Never had a spa before- is it common for it to "bubble" while it heats or should the water be still (returns still flowing) until we're ready to use the jets and bubbles? I would think running the bubbles while it's heating would drive down the temp. Do I need a spa jet line and a spa return line?

Thanks everyone for the help. This has become a bit more stressful- thought we had it all planned out.

Pool Plumbing PB Proposed.pngPool Plumbing 2023.08.07 Owner.png
 
In the lower plumbing diagram be aware that the bubblers and deck jets can only be on when in POOL mode. Because both flow back to the pool, therefore you can not have any spa suction or you would drain the spa.

Having water features on a separate pump allows those features to be on in either Spa or Pool mode.

Consider 3 pumps if you want water features on separate pump, standard pool operation on main filter pump and special spa jets on a spa dedicated pump
 
Glitterbub said:
How does non-aerated water get to the spa? Never had a spa before- is it common for it to "bubble" while it heats or should the water be still (returns still flowing) until we're ready to use the jets and bubbles? I would think running the bubbles while it's heating would drive down the temp.
Click to expand...
The drawing is actually incorrect. The blower is not in-line with the water lines. It is a separate air line that is plumbed into the ventur tee like this:

y4myP5AVl0afE0n9UK2JpTBziKOeTBLRpDMYA1AVDFw4BotzOQwQHSdoKatgkTFY_iH-aITWlMDTtp-ZK3UVTDe-c0x-traMnaSxn0rR0Il9RtHOon-y1bz9w3axJ4LpjLsLOpCjkaaR6aPLyPvoakV3-G9E5zIjls-gliz1u4XKlqcl2PuhdZ-7dF2zlMBoCzqNAVb6j9JbQY4z1ZSEyT_TqiJbBz3UFFZOyEF43IyMNg


Glitterbub said:
Do I need a spa jet line and a spa return line?
Click to expand...
I would still go with the lower/second version of the plumbing. Even with the bypass around the heater, you will still be pushing 150 GPM through the filter and that is not a good thing. With that much flow, it really needs to be a separate loop with nothing but the pump, pipe and spa jets.

Also, what is the point of all the flow meters. None are really needed. Especially the two that would read exactly the same flow (inline with pump and after salt cell). Also, the lower picture with the flow meter, doesn't make sense. What is that for?

lastely, I would rethink the pressure side cleaner. They use a lot of energy. A robot would be much more energy efficient and it cleans better.
 
HermanTX said:
In the lower plumbing diagram be aware that the bubblers and deck jets can only be on when in POOL mode. Because both flow back to the pool, therefore you can not have any spa suction or you would drain the spa.
Click to expand...
Thank you for pointing that out. That's something we need to think about it terms of how we would use the spa/pool.

HermanTX said:
Consider 3 pumps if you want water features on separate pump, standard pool operation on main filter pump and special spa jets on a spa dedicated pump
Click to expand...
I was hoping not to add another. That would make 4, but I understand what you're saying.

mas985 said:
The drawing is actually incorrect. The blower is not in-line with the water lines. It is a separate air line that is plumbed into the ventur tee like this:
Click to expand...
Thank you. Corrected. If we have a hartford loop and decide to turn on the spa to heat the water, would that automatically introduce bubbles into the water? I wanted to be able to heat the water without the bubbles.

mas985 said:
I would still go with the lower/second version of the plumbing. Even with the bypass around the heater, you will still be pushing 150 GPM through the filter and that is not a good thing. With that much flow, it really needs to be a separate loop with nothing but the pump, pipe and spa jets.
Click to expand...
Honestly, that's what I prefer as well. Aligns with my research. PB is pushing back and even said the warranty on the spa pump would be compromised. In his defense he was going off of what the rep told him, but I had to email corporate to get the right answer. The bypass around the heater is just for maintenance. I don't plan on using it when the spa turns on because then I wouldn't have heated water.

mas985 said:
Also, what is the point of all the flow meters. None are really needed. Especially the two that would read exactly the same flow (inline with pump and after salt cell). Also, the lower picture with the flow meter, doesn't make sense. What is that for?
Click to expand...
Inline with pump and salt cell are meant to catch flow in/out the system. But you question made me think- I'm not interested in flow, I'm interested in pressure. So I might just keep one as a datapoint. But will get rid of the rest.

mas985 said:
lastely, I would rethink the pressure side cleaner. They use a lot of energy. A robot would be much more energy efficient and it cleans better.
Click to expand...
I hear that a lot. If nothing else we'll have the line run and make that decision later.
 
Last edited:
Glitterbub said:
I was hoping not to add another. That would make 4, but I understand what you're saying.
Click to expand...
If you drop the pressure side cleaner then you would have only 3 pumps.

If you plan to run a separate line for a pressure side cleaner, you might consider running that line for a suction cleaner. This uses your filter pump (no additional pump) to run your cleaner and avoids having a robot with an electrical cable on the deck.

IMO - you will find 2 camps on this forum - those that swear by a robot and those that do not like the cable on the deck and find a robot is expensive for the “life” of a given robot.

There is a promise that cableless robots can be reliable - see several threads on models that are available today but very mixed performance. Even cableless skimmer robots that use solar to power the robot have limited life. However as the technology improves there is hope for a cableless reliable robot.

I had a suction side cleaner on an earlier pool and found it very effective. Currently I have a pressure side cleaner (came with the pool when I bought the house) and have spent maybe $600 over the past 14 years for repairs to it however there is the added cost of the energy used for the pressure pump. If I was building a pool today, I would put a line in for a suction side cleaner and continue to watch the development of a cableless reliable robot
 
Glitterbub said:
Thank you. Corrected. If we have a hartford loop and decide to turn on the spa to heat the water, would that automatically introduce bubbles into the water? I wanted to be able to heat the water without the bubbles.
Click to expand...
The way I would plumb the spa is with two separate loops.

One loop for the spa jets that just goes MD -> Jet Pump -> Jets.

A second loop that goes MD -> Main Pump -> Filter -> Heater -> ... -> Spa Returns. The spa is heated not through the jets but through separate returns.

Glitterbub said:
Honestly, that's what I prefer as well. Aligns with my research. PB is pushing back and even said the warranty on the spa pump would be compromised. In his defense he was going off of what the rep told him, but I had to email corporate to get the right answer. The bypass around the heater is just for maintenance. I don't plan on using it when the spa turns on because then I wouldn't have heated water.
Click to expand...
You will never get 150 GPM going through the filter alone and through the heater too, it will be much worse. This just won't work.

But why would the spa pump warranty be compromised? What was the reasoning? There is more than enough back pressure for the pump due to the spa jets if that is the issue and I can show the head loss calculations if needed. I would need a more detailed schematic of pipe sizes, lengths, fittings, basically everything that touches water needs to be defined.

Glitterbub said:
Inline with pump and salt cell are meant to catch flow in/out the system. But you question made me think- I'm not interested in flow, I'm interested in pressure. So I might just keep one as a datapoint. But will get rid of the rest.
Click to expand...
Flow in/out of a system is exactly the same as long as there is not a branch off (i.e. water leaves) between the two flow meters. Putting a single flow meter after the filter is sufficient although you probably will not use it very much.
 
mas985 said:
The way I would plumb the spa is with two separate loops.

One loop for the spa jets that just goes MD -> Jet Pump -> Jets.

A second loop that goes MD -> Main Pump -> Filter -> Heater -> ... -> Spa Returns. The spa is heated not through the jets but through separate returns.
Click to expand...
I agree. This is what I thought I was getting until they plummed the spa and pool drains.

mas985 said:
You will never get 150 GPM going through the filter alone and through the heater too, it will be much worse. This just won't work....I would need a more detailed schematic of pipe sizes, lengths, fittings, basically everything that touches water needs to be defined.
Click to expand...
I feel the same way, but not sure how to prove it. Here's the product I think I have for the main spa drain and the main pool drain. Channel Main Drains - CMP. Pool is East/West lengthwise with the spa on the NW corner.

Spa:
3" pipe coming out of the bottom of the drain, so far 3 90's have been installed to get it past the bond beam. 3 more 90's will get it to the pad and out of the ground.
2.5" pipe coming out of the bottom of the drain, so far 3 90's have been installed to get it past the bond beam. Not sure what this is for. Same number of 90's to get out of the ground at the pad. One of the three outlets is capped.

The best I can do is tell you it's 94' for each run from the drain to the side of the pad where this comes out of the group.

Pool:
3" pipe coming out of the bottom of the drain, so far 3 90's have been installed to get it past the bond beam. 3 more 90's will get it to the pad and out of the ground.
2 2.5" pipes coming out of the drain. However, only one 2.5" exits the pool past the bond beak. So far 3 90's have been installed to get it past the bond beam. 3 more 90's will get it to the pad and out of the ground.

The best I can do is tell you it's 87' for each run from the drain to the side of pad where this comes out of the ground. This includes the height going up the pool wall.

Unfortunately I don't have a "real" schematic. What additional information can I provide to get us closer than further away to a real number?

mas985 said:
But why would the spa pump warranty be compromised? What was the reasoning? There is more than enough back pressure for the pump due to the spa jets if that is the issue and I can show the head loss calculations if needed. I would need a more detailed schematic of pipe sizes, lengths, fittings, basically everything that touches water needs to be defined.
Click to expand...
The only thing I can think is that the rep thought we were going to run the spa without a filter loop at all. That's one of the things the corporate people wanted to make sure- that there's a filtration system of some kind. The other comment was that "things could get into the pump" but that didn't make any sense because water goes through the pump before it is filtered in normal operation.
 
Glitterbub said:
Spa:
3" pipe coming out of the bottom of the drain, so far 3 90's have been installed to get it past the bond beam. 3 more 90's will get it to the pad and out of the ground.
2.5" pipe coming out of the bottom of the drain, so far 3 90's have been installed to get it past the bond beam. Not sure what this is for. Same number of 90's to get out of the ground at the pad. One of the three outlets is capped.
Click to expand...
I am going to focus on the spa since that is really the problem with the setup. But do you know what the PB is planning for the pad pipe size? I will assume 2.5" unless stated otherwise.

Also, how do you get 10 jets if you are using these:
210-3420G-963x1000.png


It should be a multiple of 3 or are you counting this as one jet? How many manifolds are you planning to use? Was the 15 GPM for the 3 jet cluster or each jet? What source were you referencing for the 15 GPM?

Keep in mind those manifolds are for a single person so if you have 3 manifolds with 3 jets each, then only 3 people will get to use the jets. With standard venturi tees, you can position each jet for a single person. What is the size of your spa?


Glitterbub said:
The only thing I can think is that the rep thought we were going to run the spa without a filter loop at all. That's one of the things the corporate people wanted to make sure- that there's a filtration system of some kind. The other comment was that "things could get into the pump" but that didn't make any sense because water goes through the pump before it is filtered in normal operation.
Click to expand...
That's correct. There is no difference to the pump. The only difference is water going through the filter (plus a bunch of other plumbing) and returning to the spa jets vs no filter. But it is very common to bypass the filter for spa jets. This is the way my spa is plumbed and 1000s of other pool/spas as well. Plus the pump has a basket to stop large debris.

So I put together a first cut at an analysis based upon what I think you were telling me but it might change depending your answer to the jet questions above:

docs.google.com

Pool Pump Tools v027 - Glitterbub

docs.google.com docs.google.com

The first column shown (P), represents what the PB wants. The rest are variants of a separate loop for the spa jets:

P: PB Version, 10 jets, 3" plumbing - 105 GPM @ 64' of head

Q: Separate Loop, 10 jets, 3" plumbing - 137 GPM @ 51' of head

R: Separate Loop, 10 jets, 4" plumbing - 146 GPM @ 46' of head

Note that none of the scenarios reaches the 15 GPM per jet requirement but the one with 4" plumbing comes close.

These can easily be revised based upon any additional information you may have.

Also, if you are really set on 10 jets, then you might split them up between the two plumbing loops. I am still unclear if you are using the 3 jet manifold or not but you could put two manifolds on the separate loop and run one off the main pump through the filter/heater. This reduces the flow rate requirement through the filter and lifts some of the burden off the jet pump.
 

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