Equipment Pad Plumbing Rework - Advice Wanted

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Ds3161

Ds3161

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Sep 23, 2021
58
Kansas city
Hi all. I'm looking for some opinions from plumbing pros on some upcoming rework I am doing to my pool equipment plumbing (work will be done by pool plumber, not myself). We built our pool and finished up late last year. There is a filter pump dedicated to the pool circulation and the bubblers feature. There is a dedicated pump that drives the waterfall. Unfortunately, forethought was not done to ensure the supply to the waterfall was adequate or dedicated. I am looking for any advice or gotchas people may see with some proposed changes I am having done. (See several diagrams below).

You can see the ORIGINAL plumbing here.
Original Plumbing.jpg
And a horrible sketch of my pool and the waterfall return as well as all the returns/skimmers/drains. This is all the supply available for circulation and water features.
Pool Diagram.jpg

The waterfall builder had requested a flow rate of 210 GPM (12,600 GPH) based on total head. My pool builder chose a Pentair XF VSF. However, even at max RPMs and very little head, this pump isn't rated for that flow...and is NOISY AS heck.
When we turned on the system, we had two problems: 1) inadequate flow to waterfalls and 2) lack luster flow to the bubblers

The first attempt was hoping that maybe this was a supply issue, as the line to the waterfall(s) was a 3" line and was being staved by only have 2" of intake. We (temporarily) directed one skimmer to go with one main drain as supply for the waterfall. See below:
Current Plumbing.jpg

Flow did improve to the waterfall, but it still is not quite where we need it. I could find no pentair pool pump that would give the flow needed at less-than-a-jet-engine volume levels and my waterfall builder recommended using a waterfall/pond pump. I now have an Aquascapes EXT 18000 (external) pump I am planning to install. This pump is a single speed low RPM (~2500 RPM) with a rated flow of 18,000 GPH (300 GPM). With the total head (it's a fairly long run and several fitting, but not a lot of head height) we believe this pump has what we need to drive the waterfall. I am going to move the Pentair XF VSF pump to the filter side and hope this will provide enough wow factor to the bubblers when needed and sell the Whisperflo XF VSF.

Because we have limited choice of supply lines for the waterfall pump, this is my proposed plan. I don't like the idea of a skimmer being used for supply as nothing in that filter would get sanitized/filtered while the waterfall is on. Instead we plan to send both main drains to the waterfall when it is on, and one main drain to the filter side when the waterfall is off. One main drain will always be supplying the waterfall so there would never could be a negative supply if the waterfall pump was on. I plan to actuate the valve between filter and waterfall side with the activation of the waterfall feature. Thoughts? Are there any pitfalls with this I am not seeing. I haven't heard back from the plumbing on this proposed design yet but it is close to what we have discussed and we planned to implement this month right before I open the pool for the season.

Proposed plumbing changes (in red):
Proposed Plumbing.jpg
 

Attachments

  • Pool Diagram.jpg
    Pool Diagram.jpg
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The bypass is something I've thought about a lot. I will see about adding that as well.
For a real look at what my plumbing layout is right now, here are some pics. Note that the plumbing changes on the waterfall side is all in flux and temporary. Also excuse the mess lol. This is the last area that will get cleaned up and landscaped as we aren't done yet!
IMG_1663.jpg
IMG_1664.jpg
IMG_1665.jpg

Update: Here's the custome waterfalls. One 3" supply line splits at a manifold and goes to the three Green starting points. The red arrows shows where it exits in a cascade into the pool. With all three valves full open, #1 barely trickles, #2 doesn't flow well over the edge or reach full width, and #3 is close but needs just a little more flow. I can shut down one or two of the valve and the individual waterfalls look great. So I know it is not blocked at all.
Also, the inlet to the pump is 2" I believe. However, we feed two two inch lines to it. The NEW aquascapes pump has a 3" inlet that we will be feeding two 2" lines to. The outlet of the new aquascapes is 2" expanding to a 3" line within the first 1' of the run (as early as we can).

Waterfalls.jpg
 
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As I recall your waterfall was custom built correct? Do you have photos of that as well as photos of the intake? Have you confirmed there is not a blockage anywhere in the suction line? My waterfall/slide provides plenty of flow. The 2 differences I see are that mine is supplied with a 2.5" intake/2.5" out and we use what should be a lesser intelliflo vsf vs your xf. There are a significant number of 90's and 45's in my run. It feeds the waterfall/slide and two deck jets. The 2.5" goes to the top (roughly 15' above pump level) of the feature into a jandy 3 way then drops to 2" to feed the waterfall and slide.
 
When you turn on the bubblers, does all flow get redirected to them or is it split with the returns?
I looked at your diagram again and see the bubblers are on the filter pump separately valved. I think you would find performance of those positively impacted by the install of the heater bypass like @proavia suggested. It looks like it would be fairly easy to add to your plumbing.
 
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You might also get better flow with some Jandy neverlube valves instead of those blue handle ones. The blue handle ones with eventually degrade and stick.
 
Ds3161 said:
For a real look at what my plumbing layout is right now, here are some pics
Click to expand...
It never ceases to blow my mind that a professional charged you $20k (?) for that setup, only to use cheapo ball valves. They make more profit on the more expensive valves, it helps THEM too. But so few use them. :(
 
What size pvc pipes are going to the waterfall pump? They look like 2 inch. If so that’s a problem, you will never get the flow rate you need unless they are 3 inch to and from the pump. Even with the new pump that won’t fix the problem.
 
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Curious, assuming your install is VBGA compliant, I wonder if your problem is really that you do not have a main drain 1 and main drain 2 but 2 pipes at the pad tee'd off a single Vbga compliant drain. If that is the case, both pumps would be fighting each other for the same source and would explain your issues(including making a ton of noise from angry pumps) None of what you tried thus far would have isolated that. Maybe try moving both skimmers to the filter pump (re-attach the skimmer 2 currently feeding waterfall to the filter pump and close the valve on md1) and see how that goes. Then connect md2 to the waterfall pump.
 
Ahultin said:
As I recall your waterfall was custom built correct? Do you have photos of that as well as photos of the intake? Have you confirmed there is not a blockage anywhere in the suction line? My waterfall/slide provides plenty of flow. The 2 differences I see are that mine is supplied with a 2.5" intake/2.5" out and we use what should be a lesser intelliflo vsf vs your xf. There are a significant number of 90's and 45's in my run. It feeds the waterfall/slide and two deck jets. The 2.5" goes to the top (roughly 15' above pump level) of the feature into a jandy 3 way then drops to 2" to feed the waterfall and slide.
Click to expand...
I updated the original post to provide explanation and picture of the waterfalls. There's about 80' from the pump to the waterfalls. More concerning is the ~100' from the supply drains to the waterfall pump. And there are several fittings along the way. Even at that total head, my waterfall builder (who is less familiar with pools than very large scale waterfalls/ponds) is confident the new pump can do the flow we need as long as we can get it the supply it needs into the intake.
 

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Ahultin said:
Curious, assuming your install is VBGA compliant, I wonder if your problem is really that you do not have a main drain 1 and main drain 2 but 2 pipes at the pad tee'd off a single Vbga compliant drain. If that is the case, both pumps would be fighting each other for the same source and would explain your issues(including making a ton of noise from angry pumps) None of what you tried thus far would have isolated that. Maybe try moving both skimmers to the filter pump (re-attach the skimmer 2 currently feeding waterfall to the filter pump and close the valve on md1) and see how that goes. Then connect md2 to the waterfall pump.
Click to expand...
Each drain I believe is a full run to the equipment pad. I will double check my pictures though. If they do indeed T it would be right after the pool shell which of course is inaccessible now. Regardless, in my proposed plumbing, I have indeed changed it to supply both drains to the waterfall pump. That's why I want to switch it back to filter side when the waterfall isn't running, otherwise nothing from the bottom of the pool would ever get filtered.
 
Ds3161 said:
Each drain I believe is a full run to the equipment pad. I will double check my pictures though. If they do indeed T it would be right after the pool shell which of course is inaccessible now. Regardless, in my proposed plumbing, I have indeed changed it to supply both drains to the waterfall pump. That's why I want to switch it back to filter side when the waterfall isn't running, otherwise nothing from the bottom of the pool would ever get filtered.
Click to expand...
Youll want to check this as If it is tee'd , when you switch your proposed 3 way, you would still be suctioning back through the md2 line to the pump
 
Ahultin said:
Curious, assuming your install is VBGA compliant, I wonder if your problem is really that you do not have a main drain 1 and main drain 2 but 2 pipes at the pad tee'd off a single Vbga compliant drain. If that is the case, both pumps would be fighting each other for the same source and would explain your issues(including making a ton of noise from angry pumps) None of what you tried thus far would have isolated that. Maybe try moving both skimmers to the filter pump (re-attach the skimmer 2 currently feeding waterfall to the filter pump and close the valve on md1) and see how that goes. Then connect md2 to the waterfall pump.
Click to expand...
Ahultin said:
Youll want to check this as If it is tee'd , when you switch your proposed 3 way, you would still be suctioning back through the md2 line to the pump
Click to expand...
I did verify through pics that the two main drains are each run separately all the way to the equipment pad. The drain is a channel drain (A&A AVSC). It seems like if I pulled each drain from a different pump it might not then be VGB compliant. But if I switched both main drains to go from one pump OR the other pump, depending on whether the waterfall was on, that should be ok (For VGB compliance that is...flow is another matter)? I'm still sure it is safe either way as long as the cover is in place. There are two layers to the double-wide cover in this design and as long as it is in place, it is impossible to even block one of the drains much less two of them.
 
Based on feedback I've seen here and in some other threads, it seems like the best plumbing would be more like this diagram. Since all the incoming valves are currently ball valves, I may just replace them later WHEN they become an issue. How many years do ball valves typically last? If they're going to fail in a year I might as well replace them. If they'll last 3 or 4, maybe I can delay. Thoughts?
Ideal Plumbing.jpg
 
Ds3161 said:
If they'll last 3 or 4, maybe I can delay. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
That's probably about right. If you're handy, it's much less of a deal. For the folks who will need to pay someone to fix it down the road, paying them now to install something guaranteed to have a short life is counterproductive.

Make sure all splices / valves / etc have some spare pipe exposed in case you ever need to make repairs. Many times people have to waste good valves and such because they have to cut much further back to make repairs.
 
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Ds3161 said:
Based on feedback I've seen here and in some other threads, it seems like the best plumbing would be more like this diagram. Since all the incoming valves are currently ball valves, I may just replace them later WHEN they become an issue. How many years do ball valves typically last? If they're going to fail in a year I might as well replace them. If they'll last 3 or 4, maybe I can delay. Thoughts?
View attachment 476602
Click to expand...
If you use a 2x2.5 jandy for the 2 way on the main drains you can go into them as 2", come out of them as 2.5" with a coupler then use the larger 2.5x3 jandy 3 way so your 2.5" will go right into it and you can come out 3" with a coupler to your waterfall pump . Then same thing on the Skimmer side, come out of the jandy's for the skimmer with a coupler and 2.5" carrying 2.5 all the way to your pump union. Saves a bunch of funky and spendy transitions.
 
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Ds3161 said:
Based on feedback I've seen here and in some other threads, it seems like the best plumbing would be more like this diagram. Since all the incoming valves are currently ball valves, I may just replace them later WHEN they become an issue. How many years do ball valves typically last? If they're going to fail in a year I might as well replace them. If they'll last 3 or 4, maybe I can delay. Thoughts?
View attachment 476602
Click to expand...
For the heater bypass, it looks like you have enough room to put the three way facing out on the horizontal pipe shortly after your 2nd 90 out of the filter. Check valve on the horizontal pipe after the first 90 coming from the heater and tee on the vertical pipe after the 2nd tee from the heater and facing out . From the photos it looks like that minimizes cutting, allows reuse of your heater unions and theoretically leaves a nice horizontal pipe bypass that will land on the tee perfectly level (theoretically lol)
 
The pentair 2 way, 263027 is $37 on amazon right now, you'd need 4 for what your currently messing with. Pentair 263027 2-Inch 2-Way CPVC Diverter Valve https://a.co/d/42Nj5nI
The xf pentair 263056 3 way is the spendy one at about $100 but you really need that
263026 for the heater bypass is @$60
263042 check valve is kinda spendy @$69 on amazon.
There is a new in box intellivalve on ebay right now at 175 shipped (did you not get 2 with your intellicenter bundle?)
 
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I have to say, now that I look at your original pictures again, the "do it (over) once do it right" side of me is saying you're messing with all the plumbing anyhow, just buy 2 more 2 ways and be done with it (unless someone disagrees, I don't think you need to add them to the two return lines that do not have ball valves)
 
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Ahultin said:
If you use a 2x2.5 jandy for the 2 way on the main drains you can go into them as 2", come out of them as 2.5" with a coupler then use the larger 2.5x3 jandy 3 way so your 2.5" will go right into it and you can come out 3" with a coupler to your waterfall pump . Then same thing on the Skimmer side, come out of the jandy's for the skimmer with a coupler and 2.5" carrying 2.5 all the way to your pump union. Saves a bunch of funky and spendy transitions.
Click to expand...
That's a great idea
 

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