Yeah well, real world experience from someone I trust says otherwise. He's actually done it and seen it work. If chlorine actually destroys the resin beads, then why do these units work on city water supplies that also contain enough chlorine in them to turn Orthotolidine (OTO) bright yellow?
CH Test Differences - Mystified
- Thread starter Beargfr
- Start date
- May 3, 2014
- 59,121
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
2c from the peanut gallery
. You can use the “Watergram” wheel calculator that comes with a lot of Taylor test kits, but the wheel doesn’t account for TDS, which can have a significant effect on the result as TDS gets up there (and pools tend to accumulate TDS in climates where they don’t get drained down and closed or where there’s not a whole lot of rain, saltwater or not). It’s a lot easier, and more accurate, to use PoolMath (or any other app calculator you trust). But whatever you choose for calculator, say the “Watergram” just to sort of graphically see the effect of various CH / TA / pH combinations, you will see that a higher CH with lower TA at any given pH can give you the same index as lower CH with higher TA. That’s where the “set CH almost anywhere you want“ comes from — just balance the other chemistry for an acceptable index.Another consideration is rising pH which is going to tend to happen with higher TA (the chemistry is explained better by chemists, but Henry’s law, etc. — you can independently verify this site is not selling you a bill of goods). So you want lower TA, like 50 to 60 ppm which will tend to limit pH to around 8.0 and slow pH rise as it approaches that level. As one example and data point, my water is 60 TA, 40 CYA, 450 CH, 4,500 TDS, 7.8 or so pH, temps in the low 80’s F. My index, the way I calculate it, is slightly negative, which is what I want. My pH ceiling with CO2 partial pressure in equilibrium with the atmosphere, is just slightly above 8.0. You can keep your 400 CH, lower TA and still have balanced chemistry. Work it out on whatever calculator you trust to satisfy yourself of the relationships between the parameters and your life will get much easier
.Looks like this forum may not be the place for me.
I was hoping to find answers and understanding backed by logical explanations of the "why" behind the suggestions, enough to make sense to me. I've never been someone who will "just take someone's word" for anything. It has to make sense to me. It's an affliction. When I challenge a response, it's because I don't yet 'get' the logic behind it. I'm not trying to be overtly disagreeable.
I'm sensing this has all gotten somewhat adversarial instead. Not what I wanted or intended.
Ya'll have a good one.
Last edited:
- May 3, 2014
- 59,121
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
If you have high Chlorine levels in your tap water, then you need to use a carbon filter prior to the water softener to remove the chlorine.
Try it. Good luck.
Try it. Good luck.
There’s a lot to it. Here’s some cure for insomnia lol.
- Feb 6, 2015
- 6,342
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
Google: does chlorine damage water softener resin
While the damage may not be immediate, resin that can last 5-10 years without chlorine being present can easily fail in less than 2 years when chlorine is present. The higher the chlorine content, the quicker the resin will fail.
You have receive sound information here. Of course, it is up to you whether to use that info or not.
10's of thousands of users follow the TFP methods with great success.
Good luck and God speed in your quest.
gingrbredman
Gold Supporter
- Jun 10, 2020
- 732
- Pool Size
- 11200
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
If you do enough research across the web, of course you will find differing ideas. Some old school, some new, some from different manufacturers. I would actually be more surprised if you found everything to be in line in all that research.
TFP protocols are their own unique methods that have been developed and refined over many years by experienced pool owners perfecting what they call Trouble Free Pools. You are not going to find wildly different ideas across this site, it is just not that kind of forum. The site is not about debating different ways to manage a pool, or even really convincing others to follow the ways. It really is just about the thousands of pool owners who have found these methods to work best, and while of course you will find the information here to be consistent, the method just isn't for everyone. There are plenty of articles, references, and posts here to do all the research you need, but in the end, no one is going to tell you to "just do it this way". The site will try and teach, and others will help, but in the end, everyone has to do their own research and find what methods and what ranges work for them.
Speaking of wildly different methods, a large commercial pool is just not the same as a regular residential pool and they are really maintained differently. If you trust his advice, then by all means, you should follow that. This site doesn't ever really get into managing commercial or public pools, the health recommendations, chemical levels, and bather loads are so much different, we like to focus on what is best for the average home pool.
Good luck in the research, I do hope you find the answers you are looking for. Like I said, this site and its protocols are unique, and in that thought, they do not normally mix well with other suggestions or protocols. If you want to jump into a TFP, then this is the site that will get you there, but if you mix and match protocols, it is rarely trouble free, and not a lot of discussion around the why or how the results will be. Many of new members have come here trying to follow the suggestions of a pool builder, or a pool store, and then try "some" of the TFP member suggestions, and doesn't usually work out so well. Pool Stores and Builders and Redit or Facebook have all their own kind of logic, and take stabs in the dark trying to fix issues or debate solutions, but with the TFP way, you are just that, trouble free.
I'm not ON city water. I'm on well water - the same water source as the pool. I guess I didn't make it clear that the times I'd seen heavy OTO reactions to city tap water was many years ago when I was much younger and did live in the city - and sold those charcoal filters you mentioned. We did OTO tests to show people what was in their tap water as a sales tool. But again, you completely missed my point and didn't answer my question, which was
If chlorine kills softeners, then why do they continue to work for people who live in cities with that kind of water coming out of their taps?
- Feb 6, 2015
- 6,342
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
Being a “show me“ type guy also, I’ll try to answer. But first off, a question doesn’t need to be a challenge and sometimes there’s that fine line in perception (which I always seem to manage to cross, oh well, more apologies to those I’ve offended along the way
).Degradation of the resin from chlorine is proportional (and I don’t mean literally linearly proportional, but there’s a relationship) to the chlorine level. There’s other stuff in pool water thar’s bad for it too, but just for chlorine, more chlorine means less resin life. There’s hopefully a lot more more chlorine in your pool than in city water. This isn’t some hidden secret and if you don’t believe it, do a little independent research and be happy that you learned something new
.Thank you!! That was actually helpful, and I'm fine with that. I won't need the softener to last 5-10 years, or even as long as 1. I only need it to work long enough to get to my target CH, whatever I decide that is. I also know how to replace resin beads in a softener and where to get them when that time comes and if I'm still using it.
- Feb 6, 2015
- 6,342
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
When water evaporates from your pool, the calcium (CH) remains. Adding fill water with calcium in it adds additional calcium and the CH increases.
Here in AZ, my tap water CH is 225-250. If I were to use unsoftened tap water for my refill/make up water, my CH would increase by 225-375 ppm every year due to the high evaporation rate. Continued use of softened water for my autofill keeps theCH at a relatively constant level. My CH has only increased 50 ppm in a year and a half.
I have a whole house water softener, and while replacing the resin isn't difficult, I'd rather use a carbon filter (which is cheap and easily changed yearly) than spend $200 or more for a quality resin every few years.
Here in AZ, my tap water CH is 225-250. If I were to use unsoftened tap water for my refill/make up water, my CH would increase by 225-375 ppm every year due to the high evaporation rate. Continued use of softened water for my autofill keeps theCH at a relatively constant level. My CH has only increased 50 ppm in a year and a half.
I have a whole house water softener, and while replacing the resin isn't difficult, I'd rather use a carbon filter (which is cheap and easily changed yearly) than spend $200 or more for a quality resin every few years.
Our well water down stream from the softener (which means every point on the property except at the well head itself) has a CH level of 0, at least according to the test in my Taylor kit (which I now trust to be correct) and that includes the autofill.
I'm sure I wrecked my CH by using Cal Hypo granules to manage chlorine levels. I didn't know any better. I do now, and have switched to using nothing but 12.5% "bleach" that I keep stored in my air-conditioned shop. However my pool chlorinator in the return circuit does use Cal Hypo tablets, so there's that. I guess I'll have to keep a close eye on that to find out how it affects pool CH over time, or just stop using it. Unless someone knows of any calcium-free tablets?
- Jun 1, 2018
- 14,032
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
There are only cal hypo & trichlor tablets.
Cal hypo adds calcium & fc
Trichlor adds cya, fc, & they are also acidic
Neither are recommended for daily chlorination because of the calcium/cya build up & their effects on other parameters.
Tablet use is best left for vacations or when u need a little boost in ch (cal hypo) or cya & can handle the acidic effects (trichlor).
Otherwise it’s best & simpler to control each parameter on its own with individual doses of the needed chemical.
Cal hypo & trichlor pucks cannot be used interchangeably, they must have separate feeders/ floaters because if they combine in any way it can cause an explosion.
www.troublefreepool.com
Cal hypo adds calcium & fc
Trichlor adds cya, fc, & they are also acidic
Neither are recommended for daily chlorination because of the calcium/cya build up & their effects on other parameters.
Tablet use is best left for vacations or when u need a little boost in ch (cal hypo) or cya & can handle the acidic effects (trichlor).
Otherwise it’s best & simpler to control each parameter on its own with individual doses of the needed chemical.
Cal hypo & trichlor pucks cannot be used interchangeably, they must have separate feeders/ floaters because if they combine in any way it can cause an explosion.
How to Chlorinate Your Pool
Before chlorinating your pool, you should know these simple tips. Learn the best way to add chlorine to your pool.
www.troublefreepool.com
Ok, let me say first of all that it was never my intention to rile people up, start arguments, be insulting - none of that. I apologize for any of it that I may have contributed to.
Next, through a series of private conversations with Leebo (thanks so much). I've finally gotten some understanding about every question I had, the most recent being "why the different CH recommendations?"
I've been running our pool for a little over a year now by keeping laser focused on all the individual measurements, keeping them in what reference sources were telling me were the ideal ranges. That all worked out pretty well and my water stayed sanitary and crystal clear even through the winter.
The thing I neglected to pay enough attention to was the thing that eventually caused me to have to almost use dynamite to get rid of some scale on my waterline tile. I had assumed that happened because I knew my CH had gotten extremely high from using Cal Hypo granules as a sanitizer. I was only looking at CH by itself.
Here's what I've come to understand now, and it also explains the difference in recommended CH ranges I asked about.
Nature loves an equilibrium. Balance. Things will always tend to migrate from areas of high concentration into areas of low concentration and that includes calcium in water. The thing I kept missing was how the other metrics, pH, TA, water temperature, and others all influence how much calcium pool water "wants". All those measurements go into calculating CSI which is an indicator of whether and to what degree calcium in water is going to have a tendency to 'move' and in what direction.
You can get good CSI values with a lot of different values for the individual metrics used to determine it. What matters is the end result.
THAT'S what I was missing. That explains the different range recommendations from various sources and how they can all still be "right". I was too focused on chasing individual values and not paying enough attention to how they interact. I'm still learning, and I don't recall ever having it all explained like that. When the builder turned it all over to us and showed me how to run tests, all I got from that was 'hit all these ranges and you'll be good'. Maybe they 'assumed' we'd be hiring someone to do it for us, I don't know.
I still want to lower my overall CH because I think softer water feels 'nicer' on skin, but now I understand the real target I'm trying to hit and maintain.
Thanks again to Leebo.
Cheers,
Bear
Next, through a series of private conversations with Leebo (thanks so much). I've finally gotten some understanding about every question I had, the most recent being "why the different CH recommendations?"
I've been running our pool for a little over a year now by keeping laser focused on all the individual measurements, keeping them in what reference sources were telling me were the ideal ranges. That all worked out pretty well and my water stayed sanitary and crystal clear even through the winter.
The thing I neglected to pay enough attention to was the thing that eventually caused me to have to almost use dynamite to get rid of some scale on my waterline tile. I had assumed that happened because I knew my CH had gotten extremely high from using Cal Hypo granules as a sanitizer. I was only looking at CH by itself.
Here's what I've come to understand now, and it also explains the difference in recommended CH ranges I asked about.
Nature loves an equilibrium. Balance. Things will always tend to migrate from areas of high concentration into areas of low concentration and that includes calcium in water. The thing I kept missing was how the other metrics, pH, TA, water temperature, and others all influence how much calcium pool water "wants". All those measurements go into calculating CSI which is an indicator of whether and to what degree calcium in water is going to have a tendency to 'move' and in what direction.
You can get good CSI values with a lot of different values for the individual metrics used to determine it. What matters is the end result.
THAT'S what I was missing. That explains the different range recommendations from various sources and how they can all still be "right". I was too focused on chasing individual values and not paying enough attention to how they interact. I'm still learning, and I don't recall ever having it all explained like that. When the builder turned it all over to us and showed me how to run tests, all I got from that was 'hit all these ranges and you'll be good'. Maybe they 'assumed' we'd be hiring someone to do it for us, I don't know.
I still want to lower my overall CH because I think softer water feels 'nicer' on skin, but now I understand the real target I'm trying to hit and maintain.
Thanks again to Leebo.
Cheers,
Bear
Results: After running for 2 days on a 40,100 gallon pool, CH is down by 20 points. It works.
That is great that you able to reduce your CH via the water softener addition.