Will this heat pump work on a 60A subpannel?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Are you sure that the black cable goes to the subpanel?

With Romex style wire, you have to follow the 60°C conductor wire ampacity rating.

So, even if the wires are #6, they're limited to 55 amps. If they're #6, you should have a 50 amp breaker and limit the load to 40 amps.

If they're #8 wires, you can use a 40 amp breaker and load at 32 amps.

You definitely should not add a heat pump to that subpanel.
 
JamesW said:
The wires look like #8, not #6.

You can get a short piece of #6 and #8 from a hardware store to hold up for comparison to see which one matches.

It looks like there are 4 large black wires coming in. 2 go to the power lugs, 1 is wrapped in white electrical tape going to the neutral bar and one looks like it's going to the ground bar.

The color of the power wire at the end where it connects to the power lug looks like aluminum, not copper.

You can verify by just looking at the exposed metal.
Click to expand...
It looks like you are right. It is in fact #8 wire after comparing like you said. However, it is definitely copper, not aluminum.
 
JamesW said:
The wires look like #8, not #6.

You can get a short piece of #6 and #8 from a hardware store to hold up for comparison to see which one matches.

It looks like there are 4 large black wires coming in. 2 go to the power lugs, 1 is wrapped in white electrical tape going to the neutral bar and one looks like it's going to the ground bar.

The color of the power wire at the end where it connects to the power lug looks like aluminum, not copper.

You can verify by just looking at the exposed metal.
Click to expand...
It looks like you are right. It is in fact #8 wire after comparing like you said. However, it is definitely copper, not alumun
JamesW said:
Are you sure that the black cable goes to the subpanel?

With Romex style wire, you have to follow the 60°C conductor wire ampacity rating.

So, even if the wires are #6, they're limited to 55 amps. If they're #6, you should have a 50 amp breaker and limit the load to 40 amps.

If they're #8 wires, you can use a 40 amp breaker and load at 32 amps.

You definitely should not add a heat pump to that subpanel.
Click to expand...
I really appreciate your input and will follow your advice here. I guess I'm stuck with my gas heater then which is a real shame since our house is powered by solar. The pvc is only 1" and I'm sure it would be far too expensive to dig a 70ft trench back to the house with larger pvc.

Do you happen to have a recommendation for a natural gas pool heater that is more efficient than the Raypak 206A?

Thanks so much for your help!
 
My electrician is coming out Friday to have a look. He said pulling 6ga through a 1in pvc is definitely a risk because if it doesn't work out, a new trench will have to be dug (and we're currently building a swingset over that area).

However, assuming the 6ga wire can be pulled through. Is this still inadequate for the aforementioned pool hardware? If a 6ga wire isn't enough I will probably just abandon the heat pump endeavor.
 
JamesW said:
Are you sure that the conduit is 1"?

Individual #6 THHN is just barely acceptable. Romex won't work.

Individual #4 THHN would be better.
Click to expand...
I am certain that the conduit is 1in. If #6 will do the trick, I may take the gamble. I'm not willing to dig up the old conduit and/or lay down a new one so that's out of the question.

The problem is, they will use the old #8 wire to pull the new one through so if something goes wrong, I could be royally screwed and forced to take up the conduit. It's a 70ft underground run with 2 90s and 2 45s.
 
Glad to hear an electrician is coming out.
Depending on your breaker to trip is a big risk.
I have seen panels that have over heated and catch fire before the breaker ever tripped.

There are three types of wire, copper (best), aluminum, and copper clad aluminum both of which take would be rated even lower than copper.
Same with panels, copper bus bars and aluminum bus bars ( we never use aluminum)
We install new service upgrades (60 amp to 100 amps), and alot of times are forced to use 1" conduit, so hopefully you will not have any problems.
Digging the trench is not that bad.
Flip the grass over, dig down, back fill, then put your grass back.
I personally hate digging trenches :)
 
blazer58 said:
Glad to hear an electrician is coming out.
Depending on your breaker to trip is a big risk.
I have seen panels that have over heated and catch fire before the breaker ever tripped.

There are three types of wire, copper (best), aluminum, and copper clad aluminum both of which take would be rated even lower than copper.
Same with panels, copper bus bars and aluminum bus bars ( we never use aluminum)
We install new service upgrades (60 amp to 100 amps), and alot of times are forced to use 1" conduit, so hopefully you will not have any problems.
Digging the trench is not that bad.
Flip the grass over, dig down, back fill, then put your grass back.
I personally hate digging trenches :)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the information. What is the largest wire you can retrofit into a 1in conduit? I would definitely prefer to upgrade the 60A panel to 100 but I get the impression a #4 wire would be needed.
 
yes you could use 1" for number 4 (3 #4's and a #6 for the ground), you can down size for the ground wire only.
It might be a hard pull tho, the electrician should have an ideal on the pull.
With your run you would be at 60 amp sub panel, maybe a little higher, again the electrician should be able to figure your load count for you
 
JamesW said:
Are you sure that the conduit is 1"?

Individual #6 THHN is just barely acceptable. Romex won't work.

Individual #4 THHN would be better.
Click to expand...
According to a calculator I was using, even #4 looks close. Looks like a max of 70A breaker at 150ft.

Max load with everything would be 66A. More realistic continuous load would be about 52A. I have to decide whether to let the electrician pull the #4 tomorrow and risk losing the wires already in the conduit.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Poolnewb105 said:
Minimum circuit ampacity of heater is 42.4A, Max pump is 16A, swg is 1A, Booster pump is 6.4A, Light and other miscellaneous is 1A max. That gets us to 66.4A with everything maxed out. Wouldn't I need 2 or 3awg at that point?
Click to expand...

Will it meet code? I don't believe so.

Will it work? It should with the bet being you are not running your VS pump at anywhere near full RPMs. Put up a big sign for all future residents saying "WARNING - DO NOT RUN VS PUMP AT FULL RPMS WHILE HEAT PUMP IS RUNNING!!!"
 
ajw22 said:
Will it meet code? I don't believe so.

Will it work? It should with the bet being you are not running your VS pump at anywhere near full RPMs. Put up a big sign for all future residents saying "WARNING - DO NOT RUN VS PUMP AT FULL RPMS WHILE HEAT PUMP IS RUNNING!!!"
Click to expand...
That sounds reasonable. If the electrician feels confident pulling #4 through the 1im conduit I will probably do it. If #6 is too risky I'll probably just abstain from the project all together.

I suppose it's not the end of the world if I'm forced to stick with my gas heater. It's obviously a whole lot less convenient if we have to fire it up before each swim and wait til it gets to 88 degrees.
 
The Hayward HeatPro HP21404T has a minimum circuit ampacity of 42 amps, a minimum fuse of 50 amps and a maximum fuse of 60 amps. It takes an input of 7,200 watts, which is 31.3 amps at 230 volts. The minimum circuit ampacity is not how much it will actually use.

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/literature/HeatProBrochure-LITHTPRO17.pdf

The IntelliFlo has a full load amps of 16 and takes a 20 amp fuse. It’s listed as 3,200 watts, which is 13.9 amps at 230 volts.

The booster is 6.4 amps.

Aquarite is 1 amp.

Assuming 500 watts for the light, that's 2.2 amps at 230 volts.

31.3 + 13.9 + 6.4 + 1 + 2.2 = 54.8 amps.

In my opinion, this is a reasonable estimate for the total load with everything running.

#4 wire is rated for 70 amps even at the 60 degrees Celcius rating.

If you use a 70 amp breaker and load at 56 amps, that's 80% load.

Assuming 60 amps at 150 feet of #4 AWG, you will get a voltage drop of about 2.15%, which is below the 3% maximum.

In my opinion, it will work and be code compliant.

See what your electrician says. An electrician on site is the best person to make the final decision.
 
JamesW said:
The Hayward HeatPro HP21404T has a minimum circuit ampacity of 42 amps, a minimum fuse of 50 amps and a maximum fuse of 60 amps. It takes an input of 7,200 watts, which is 31.3 amps at 230 volts. The minimum circuit ampacity is not how much it will actually use.

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/literature/HeatProBrochure-LITHTPRO17.pdf

The IntelliFlo has a full load amps of 16 and takes a 20 amp fuse. It’s listed as 3,200 watts, which is 13.9 amps at 230 volts.

The booster is 6.4 amps.

Aquarite is 1 amp.

Assuming 500 watts for the light, that's 2.2 amps at 230 volts.

31.3 + 13.9 + 6.4 + 1 + 2.2 = 54.8 amps.

In my opinion, this is a reasonable estimate for the total load with everything running.

#4 wire is rated for 70 amps even at the 60 degrees Celcius rating.

If you use a 70 amp breaker and load at 56 amps, that's 80% load.

Assuming 60 amps at 150 feet of #4 AWG, you will get a voltage drop of about 2.15%, which is below the 3% maximum.

In my opinion, it will work and be code compliant.

See what your electrician says. An electrician on site is the best person to make the final decision.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for this breakdown. When we spoke yesterday he seemed like pulling #6 is risky so I'll have to see what he thinks about #4 tomorrow.

Otherwise I'm thinking of investing roughly $6k in those solar pool panels. I have the room for a ground mount by my pool. I'm sure the NG usage would be minimal with a solar cover and solar pool panels. Then again, I'm in NY so I'm not sure how effective the solar pool panels are in may and Sept.
 
JamesW said:
Earlier, I said that I thought that #6 could work. However, it might be too small.

I wouldn't do #6 unless the electrician felt confident that it was adequate.
Click to expand...
I recall. Thank you very much for the information.

Another option is a ground mounted solar system right by my pool. I got a quote for approximately $6k. I wonder what natural gas usage would look like with a solar pool heater and solar cover.
 
There are two 240 volt breakers in the subpanel and four 120 volt breakers.

The two 240 volt breakers should go to the two pumps.

The Aquarite should be powered with the main pump.

The light should be on a 120 volt breaker.

What do the other three 120 volt breakers go to?
 
JamesW said:
There are two 240 volt breakers in the subpanel and four 120 volt breakers.

The two 240 volt breakers should go to the two pumps.

The Aquarite should be powered with the main pump.

The light should be on a 120 volt breaker.

What do the other three 120 volt breakers go to?
Click to expand...
Gas heater, outlets and pool light I'm assuming.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply