Phosphates.....are they worth removing??

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I usually run at the full suggested rate for FC/Cya, and always dose to land a point or two above on additions. I had 515 from a HACH as well, and took it as an avg of three. Two were split (.45u) and naturally, not enough was there to show one, but I was curious enough to do it. In any event, I'm dosing no higher than standards, and I'm going to try running no higher than 5% to see what happens. If I start getting hazy with the beginnings of nascent events, I'll go back to my normal ways, so we will see how long it lasts. I'll let you guys know, but I expect to be back to Std ratios before summer is out because I won't have much patience with even the earliest indication of a nascent situation. Going on season three now, the methods I've employed haven't allowed one spec of green in the pool.

That's curious about the Cya instructions, and I'm going to be looking at this myself to see if other brands are changing them. It makes you wonder, but that outfit obviously thinks theirs will dissolve rapidly, and or not be a risk to plasters. Mostly, I'm pleased to see another data point for quick dispersement, but I'm wondering if they are backing off on skimmer addition and why if so.

Thank you for spelling out your intent with your removal process/purpose...for newer members especially.
 
Okay, fellow lab rats, the fun begins in the pool (formerly known as Swamp) that opened crystal clear ;) with the following un-adjusted numbers:

FC 5.5
CC 0
Ph 7.2
TA 80
CH 40
CYA 45-50
Borates: looks like 50 ppm but I've ordered a new kit - last test strip
(Note: I bummed up borates and cya last year at closing)
Iron .3
Copper .3

Salt -- various confounding readings here, not swg yet but last year discovered salt was around 3,500 regardless.

Aquacheck test strips put it at 2830 twice, pool tech's Hach meter puts it at 2900, but hubby's fancy $100 refractometer says SG of 1.004 or 5.3 ppt which should be 5,300...which makes no sense. I'm chalking that up to calibration temp-wise and going with hatch and strips but have ordered Taylor salt test kit to check again before installing the SWG.


1st unbelievable data point: phosphate test using aquarium kit, which goes to 5,000 ppb or 5 mg/l which is 5 ppm:
With as much precision as possible, using distilled water for dilution, we could not even read below max until a 10x dilution (so very wide margin of error. At 10x dilution, the color gradation landed around 3.7 for a whopping 37,000 ppb PO4

We had tested the summer before last with extensive dilution and landed at 25,000. So, without any more precision available, it would appear that two summers of heavy sequestering net a delta in the range of another 12,000 PO4. Another possibility is that we gave up by 25,000 the first time, since it takes a long time to sequentially test at each level of dilution ;)

I have now warmed the water to 72 degrees because SeaKlear when asked said water temp affects reaction time. I am about to shut down the heater and add 2 gallons of SeaKlear, which is all I've got, and which is rated to treat a bit less than 36,000 ppb total in my pool (9k per 10k gallons per 32 oz.)

I am also about to backwash the filter, which runs clean at about 17 psi. Seaklear instruction say to backwash when 10 above psi...though I agree with Matt that avoiding backwashing is better -- Seaklear has said he doesn't expect that I'll be able to avoid backwashing at this level.

Wish me luck!
 
Leebo said:
So I'm slightly confused here as Swampwoman in the very next post reported her phosphate level as being VERY high yet she still has never had any issues getting algae? What is she doing differently that other users aren't? Is she using more chlorine than others to achieve the same end result??
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As to your above question, the simple answer is that she is using exactly twice the chlorine level I use. So, considering that month after month and year after year, she is using twice the chlorine I use, IMHO that most likely could be considered a GREAT expense.

Phosphates are food for algae and if we could remove ALL phosphates, we wouldn't need chlorine to kill algae. We could just starve it to death. However, it is not possible to remove ALL phosphates.

Chlorine poisons algae and if we inject enough algae poison into the pool, we can overcome even the highest amounts of phosphates.

Like a general on the battlefield, would it not be wisest to judiciously employ all of the tools at our disposal? Would the enemy not be easier to poison, if it were malnourished? Would it not take less "poison" to totally subdue the enemy?
 
Did you get any clarifier? Did the rep talk about using floc at all?? I know TFP does not recommend either for general use (and I agree) but this is so far from anything one could call normal that thinking outside the box is a must...
 
Lol. Yes, I have the clarifier -- seaklears chitosan based natural clarifier -- but wanted to first see how the lil ole sand filter kept up.

Its been about 2.5-3 hrs now and I'm actually surprised to see that clearing has begun in the shallow end, with murky globs near the bottom.

Gonna add clarifier now as I'm avail to babysit the pump while powerwash ;)

Here's the stairs:
image.jpg
 
I should add, Matt, that the rep indeed discussed floccing and clarifier as follows:

1. The lanathum itself in high amounts acts as somewhat of a flocking agent, so he felt at my rate I should see some floc-type dropping despite the filtering.

2. ESP. With a sand filter, sk recommends tandem treatment with 4 oz per 10k gallons of Seaklear clarifier, which due to the chitosan, acts like somewhat like a flocculant (though one captured by filter) due to bridging power.

Because I'm avail to babysit pump and am changing out sand next week anyway, I've added 16 oz for my 23k gallon pool. So the pump pressure and any goo on bottom will tell the tale over the next 24 hrs or so, I suspect.

My hope is that some WILL drop to the bottom to be vacuumed to waste despite the filter running, and in fact that does seem to be happening in the shallow end. I have a feeling that if I shut everything down now for the next 24 hrs it might all drop down naturally. But I want to see how far I can get with filtering. After all, I did watch this snd filter get me from black swamp to crystal in 12 days (with chlorine, of course). ;)

PSI has risen to 19 from 17. I will let it go the recommended 10 before taking any action or shutting it down. VERY good flow from returns. Surprised by this actually ;)
 

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Seriously cool experiment SW!!

I am currently looking at my crystal clear, sparkling pool in the morning light. My [PO4] has been lowered and all of my levels adjusted (borates and CYA brought up). I'm currently in the process of dialing in my SWG/pump run time to lower my FC.

I hope your SWG install goes flawlessly and I think you're really going to love the ease of chlorine automation with it. The Taylor K-1766 is going to give you the best measure of [Cl-] content so I would trust that number over anything else.
 
MarianParoo said:
Thanks for the progress updates!
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+1. Keep up the good work.

Today I tested our tap water (city water) today using the Taylor kit K-1106. It came up between 500-1000 ppb. Between that and the fact I regularly use Jack's Magic Purple Stuff in the pool, I expect the pool is very high in phosphates. I'll test the pool in a couple weeks when I open it for the season.
 
Saturn94 said:
+1. Keep up the good work.

Today I tested our tap water (city water) today using the Taylor kit K-1106. It came up between 500-1000 ppb. Between that and the fact I regularly use Jack's Magic Purple Stuff in the pool, I expect the pool is very high in phosphates. I'll test the pool in a couple weeks when I open it for the season.
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WOW! That's really high orthophosphate levels for a municipal supply?? Does the water company put out an annual water quality report that you can download? Have you ever questioned the water provider about those levels? My parents had well water for most of my younger years growing up and they had an orthophosphate trap in-line to sequester the high iron content. I remember my dad had to refill the trap every month with phosphate. Do you have something like that?

Just wondering.
 
SW, with regards to the salt I would go with the Hach meter until you get the Taylor. The refractometer is probably reading somewhere in the bottom 5% of its range. I've got an old seawater refactometer somewhere but it's no good for the pool. Even the Taylor can be out by as much as 10%.

Does the SeaKlear instructions recommend a contact time for the lanthanum carbonate to fully react with the phosphate and/or to stir it up to aid the reaction?

I was wrong about my water turning green, it's been over a week now for my little experiment and still nothing. There's a chance borates are a stronger algaecide than thought but it's gotten cooler hear and I may not have exposed my sample to enough algae cells to start it off.

ewkearns said:
Phosphates are food for algae and if we could remove ALL phosphates, we wouldn't need chlorine to kill algae. We could just starve it to death. However, it is not possible to remove ALL phosphates.
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I agree, you can't remove all phosphates and if you could it would be almost impossible to remain phosphate free however you can't kill algae by starving it of phosphate, at best you can only prevent it from multiplying. Algae don't need phosphate to stay alive in the same way we require oxygen from the next breath. A lack of any of the required nutrients will prevent an algae cell from dividing into parent and daughter cells but it won't immediately starve the existing cell, algae are phototrophs and make their on food using energy from the sun.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
WOW! That's really high orthophosphate levels for a municipal supply?? Does the water company put out an annual water quality report that you can download? Have you ever questioned the water provider about those levels? My parents had well water for most of my younger years growing up and they had an orthophosphate trap in-line to sequester the high iron content. I remember my dad had to refill the trap every month with phosphate. Do you have something like that?

Just wondering.
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I did find this in a report called, "2015 Miscellaneous Analyses of Finished Water at Water Treatment Plant". Ortho-phosphorus was reported at an average of 0.222 ppm.

I'm not sure what would cause it to jump up by the time it gets to our house. I did follow the test instructions carefully and used a timer on my iPad, so I don't think it's a testing error on my part.

No, we don't have any kind of water treatment devices at home.
 
Saturn94 said:
I did find this in a report called, "2015 Miscellaneous Analyses of Finished Water at Water Treatment Plant". Ortho-phosphorus was reported at an average of 0.222 ppm.

I'm not sure what would cause it to jump up by the time it gets to our house. I did follow the test instructions carefully and used a timer on my iPad, so I don't think it's a testing error on my part.

No, we don't have any kind of water treatment devices at home.
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I wonder if your water supplier would do spot testing if you called them in? Some do as part of a free service offered to customers that have concerns about their water quality.

I would certainly trust their analysis as they're likely using an automated spectrophotometer to measure the phosphate level. The pool testing kits have to rely on the human eyeball to pick out a color shade of blue and so that has an inherently course granularity. Automated testers, if properly calibrated, can be much more accurate.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
I wonder if your water supplier would do spot testing if you called them in? Some do as part of a free service offered to customers that have concerns about their water quality.

I would certainly trust their analysis as they're likely using an automated spectrophotometer to measure the phosphate level. The pool testing kits have to rely on the human eyeball to pick out a color shade of blue and so that has an inherently course granularity. Automated testers, if properly calibrated, can be much more accurate.
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The color of the sample was definitely in the upper range of the Taylor kit; certainly at least 500 but maybe not as dark as the 1000 reference on the card, hence why I said 500-1000.

Regarding the test procedure, should I have let the tap run a few minutes before taking a sample (I didn't do this)? I'll check both the pool and the tap when I open in a couple weeks.
 
Yeah, always good to run the tap a bit. That's what they would do if you asked a pro to take a sample.

Better yet, can you get a sample from the main input? In my house, the incoming water main is setup with a pressure regulator, backflow preventer, a spigot and a service loop for the irrigation system. So I can get a water sample from before it enters my home.
 

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