Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Completion and wrap up

[proavia]

This made me think of the UV index you see on weather apps. This UV Index chart for today and your comment about bell curves drives the point home for me. I’m guessing you could simply visualize this as “FC loss” instead of UV index.

View attachment 564158


Wouldn’t my low point be pretty much the same? Does your pool get full sun throughout the day? My pool has full sun until about 5pm.

Yeah - just giving you a baseline for planning. Yours may be slightly different, but this is a good starting point.

 

[Newdude]

I’m guessing you could simply visualize this as “FC loss” instead of UV index.

BINGO !!!!! Or visualize it for seasonal daily loss




There are whoopsie weeks (or days) in there, but most of the time, both follow the schedule.

Once you understand how they affect you, neither the week in the season or the time of day will sneak up on you.

Testing a 7, may or may not tell the whole story.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Things seem to be going well with FC.

I have been trying to get pH down to 7.5, with my thought to add acid when around 7.8. I don’t have anything driving up pH other than new plaster and the three scuppers run for 5 minutes every day just to keep the lines fresh. I have read a fair amount on TFP that acid demand/pH rise is actually higher when you are managing pH at lower levels. So my question is would I be able to effectively manage my pool in the 7.8 to 8 range and would that reduce the acid consumption?

And for the fun of it, here is a short video of snoopy cleaning our Baja ledge in 9” of water (oh I guess this may contribute a little to pH rise)!

 

[proavia]

When you get your TA down to about 60-ish, the pH rise will slow. And it will still take a while for the plaster to cure - also helping slow pH rise.
You will be able to have pH in the 7.8-7.9 range with that TA and still have CSI on the 0.00 to -0.30 range .... at least until you CH climbs due to evaporation. As the CH rises you will need to keep pH a little lower to keep CSI in range.

A water softener plumbed to the autofill will go a long way in keeping the CH in check.

 

[Schwimmbad]

When you get your TA down to about 60-ish, the pH rise will slow. And it will still take a while for the plaster to cure - also helping slow pH rise.
You will be able to have pH in the 7.8-7.9 range with that TA and still have CSI on the 0.00 to -0.30 range

So until TA drops down to the lower end of the range time I’ll be an acid pimp? My fill water has TA of 110, will it even drop that far?

A water softener plimbed to the autofill will go a long way in keeping the CH in check.

Did that! Funny both a plumber for the pool I considered and the water softener company both said not to do it. I politely thanked them for their comments and proceeded to do it.

Topic - Using soft water for autofil... Hoping for a little enlightenment from those in the know.

 

[proavia]

My TA is 120-130. I'm able to keep my TA in the 60-70 range, even in mid summer.
It takes whatever acid it takes.
Should have bought stock in muriatic acid.

It can be a bit of a challenge at times. And if it gets out of wack for short periods, it isn't the end of the world..

The game changers for me were the SWG and the softened water line to the autofill.

 

[Newdude]

So until TA drops down to the lower end of the range time I’ll be an acid pimp?

So hear me out. My vote is to let it fall naturally by maintaining a high 7 and here is why.

It probably takes similar acid doses to have it done quickly by maintaining a low 7, as it does to wait it out. If you hurry it up, you will still have to manage it for the time it would have happened naturally, plus the acid used to force it. IMO, it's more supplies and effort to try and make less effort and supplies.

 

[Schwimmbad]

My TA is 120-130. I'm able to keep my TA in the 60-70 range, even in mid summer.
It takes whatever acid it takes.
Should have bought stock in muriatic acid.

It can be a bit of a challenge at times. And if it gets out of wack for short periods, it isn't the end of the world..

The game changers for me were the SWG and the softened water line to the autofill.

That’s a bit encouraging that your TA is a little higher than mine and you are able to keep it at the low end of the range. My pool started at 130-140 and just tested it this morning at 80. I wasn’t trying to do anything with TA, I was just dumping in acid to maintain pH.

So hear me out. My vote is to let it fall naturally by maintaining a high 7 and here is why.

It probably takes similar acid doses to have it done quickly by maintaining a low 7, as it does to wait it out. If you hurry it up, you will still have to manage it for the time it would have happened naturally, plus the acid used to force it. IMO, it's more supplies and effort to try and make less effort and supplies.

It has fallen quite a bit since the first few days. I‘m gonna run pH in the high 7’s for a while. I like the idea of less effort and supplies.

 

[Newdude]

I like the idea of less effort and supplies.

To be clear, there's no wrong answer and sometimes knowing that a task is at hand is more stressful to the operator, than possibly doing more work in the long run.

But i see 2 choices:

Force the thing sooner and have to still do the regular thing in the time it would have handled itself.

Just do the regular thing and it all handles itself. (This way has more regular things but less effort to start).

*assuming TA is reasonably close to in range and not 200. Lol

*assuming CSI can handle both ways in the meantime.

 

[proavia]

That’s a bit encouraging that your TA is a little higher than mine and you are able to keep it at the low end of the range. My pool started at 130-140 and just tested it this morning at 80. I wasn’t trying to do anything with TA, I was just dumping in acid to maintain pH.


It has fallen quite a bit since the first few days. I‘m gonna run pH in the high 7’s for a while. I like the idea of less effort and supplies.

To be clear, there's no wrong answer and sometimes knowing that a task is at hand is more stressful to the operator, than possibly doing more work in the long run.

But i see 2 choices:

Force the thing sooner and have to still do the regular thing in the time it would have handled itself.

Just do the regular thing and it all handles itself. (This way has more regular things but less effort to start).

*assuming TA is reasonably close to in range and not 200. Lol

*assuming CSI can handle both ways in the meantime.

Any way you slice it, you are going to need to always add acid as your TA will rise with water additions do to evaporation. And a higher TA will cause the pH to rise a bit faster.

In 24 years with my pool, this is a given.
I get my 31.45% muriaric acid in a 4 pack of reusable containers. It's stored outside, away from metals in a small vented plastic deck box - away from the pool. It sits outside in the AZ heat without isue

 

[Dirk]

FWIW...

I battled TA when I first took over my pool. I drove @mknauss nuts by doing so, constantly asking him questions, what to do, how to do it. I fashioned fountains for my returns to help manipulate the TA. Really tried everything. Everything except @mknauss' advice: just leave it alone and it'll come down on its own. Which it did, after I finally did!!!

I haven't tested my fill TA in a while, but last time I did it was 130. My pool hovers around 50 now, and has, ever since I started ignoring TA. My plaster is well cured, but it still likes lots of acid. I presume that is the fill TA. I installed automated acid dosing, and that allows me to pretty much ignore TA. My pH and TA are rock-solid stable 24/365.



I still have those fountains stashed in my garage, but I've never used them since.

Can't recommend enough a water softener for the pool. Totally solved many problems for me. When I once checked, it did nothing to the TA, which seems to pass right through. But my CH has been very stable for half a decade, and only once (last year) did I have to do a small exchange to bring my CH back into range.

 

[Schwimmbad]

As I’ve been been able to get in the pool more with the temps warming up I’ve noticed a few things and hoping for a bit of advice.

In several inside corners of the steps and benches some of the pebble is really rough. Not the entire corner, just some pebbles. I’d like to knock them off with something and looking for some advice on what to use/how to do it by hand. I was looking around for some wet/dry sandpaper with a foam backing of some sort and came across this.
BSRTTOOL Diamond Hand Polishing Pads 60 Grit Sanding Blocks Foam Backing for Tile Stone Marble Concrete Ceramics Granite Glass Wet Dry 1PCS 60
Would this work or what other suggestions are there? Hoping to avoid any type of power tool.

I noticed some faint thin white scaling on both sides of the epoxy grout on most of the waterline tile. I never noticed this before but I guess it’s possible it was there before filling, but I don’t think so. It starts about 1 inch above the waterline and goes most of the way up to the bottom of the coping but doesn’t go all the way up). I haven’t tried to clean it off with anything yet but wondering if it is efflorescence, scale, or possibly something else and how to confirm? I didn’t expect efflorescence to come through epoxy grout, but never specifically looked into it. It seems to mostly scrape off without much effort. Used only my fingernails, but didn’t get it all off on any individual tile.


If anyone wonders about my levels see below (average over this month)
FC 7.2
pH 7.8
TA 90
CH 356
CYA 65
Salt 2800
CSI 0.0

 

[kimkats]

efflorescence

This is my guess. I would get some good safety glasses and a spray bottle. Mix muriatic acid and water 1 to 4 in the bottle. Spray the white stuff and see what happens. Make sure to splash the area you spray real good to get it off. If the 1 to 4 does not work then got to half and half. Remember muriatic acid will lower your pH but with the tiny bit you will be getting into the water it should not do too much to your pH. You can also use a toothbrush to help get the stuff off after the spraying.

 

[Newdude]

Factor the wind also. A tiny breeze will make over spray. Or an unsteady hand after squeezing the trigger for 30 mins already.

 

[Dirk]

Long-winded warning!!

My pool's finish attracted calcium like a magnet. The previous owners let it go and it destroyed the finish. And they had a massive amount of build up on the edge tile, too. It took a pro to remove it from the tile (they mechanically blasted it with something), and I had to replace the finish to fix the rest of the pool.

Fast forward a few years, with very strict adherence to TFP guidelines, especially CSI, and my finish was still pristine, as was the edge tile. I was quite proud of myself, and thought I had solved these two problems forever.

As of today, the finish is still pristine, but the tile now has some build up. Probably the same stuff you're seeing. It cannot be a water chemistry issue (because I've been a maniac about it), and I don't think it's efflorescence (if by that you mean something leeching from the material). Like yours, mine only exists above the water line, and not all the way up to the top of the tile.

I believe this is due to evaporation. The water laps up above the waterline, and then evaporates off the tile. It leaves behind a mineral residue (mostly calcium I presume). If I had taken care of it regularly, I could have probably used some minimal mechanical abrasion (maybe even a plastic scrubby) to keep it at bay. But I didn't, and now I have a big chore in front of me.

My instinct was to try acid, just as you are getting ready to, but I've since learned about an alternative. Muriatic might work, but it is H to work with, and potentially dangerous (to you and the finish). You always want to start with the least intrusive solution first. Which is kinda what Kim was suggesting, but I would start much, much lower, and not use acid at all, at least not at first.

If you can mechanically remove it, do that, and don't use any chemical as a shortcut. When I ran my issue by my guru (@mcleod, an expert in this particular field) he suggested I start with something like this:

3M 7445 Light Duty Hand Pads S-20603 - Uline

Conforms to uneven surfaces. Lasts longer than steel wool. Anti-scratch coating. Gentle polishing of stainless steel and glass. Works well with liquid detergent. White, super fine-grade aluminum silicate. ULINE offers over 43,000 boxes, plastic poly bags, mailing tubes, warehouse supplies and...

www.uline.com

I also read here about an MO of using a slurry of Bar Keepers Friend, applied like a paste, covered with plastic wrap (I guess to help it stay in place), left for a while, and then wiped off (attempting to keep it out of the water as much as possible). Which I have yet to try but will be this Spring. Another here claims it works, others haven't had the same luck. BKF is acid-based, which is probably why this works, but it is much "gentler" than muriatic, and way easier to work with and control.

Muriatic will be my absolute last resort. In fact, I'll probably go to power tools before I try acid. I tried a drill with a wire brush attachment on a small patch, and that worked. But my edge tile isn't actually tile. It doesn't have a glaze, it's just sliced rock, so I don't recommend that for a glazed tile finish.



Disclosure: I've had some mishaps with muriatic (and CYA) acids, so I tend to be more cautious than others here, and perhaps more cautious than necessary.

 

[mbdesa]

As I’ve been been able to get in the pool more with the temps warming up I’ve noticed a few things and hoping for a bit of advice.

In several inside corners of the steps and benches some of the pebble is really rough. Not the entire corner, just some pebbles. I’d like to knock them off with something and looking for some advice on what to use/how to do it by hand. I was looking around for some wet/dry sandpaper with a foam backing of some sort and came across this.
BSRTTOOL Diamond Hand Polishing Pads 60 Grit Sanding Blocks Foam Backing for Tile Stone Marble Concrete Ceramics Granite Glass Wet Dry 1PCS 60
Would this work or what other suggestions are there? Hoping to avoid any type of power tool.

I noticed some faint thin white scaling on both sides of the epoxy grout on most of the waterline tile. I never noticed this before but I guess it’s possible it was there before filling, but I don’t think so. It starts about 1 inch above the waterline and goes most of the way up to the bottom of the coping but doesn’t go all the way up). I haven’t tried to clean it off with anything yet but wondering if it is efflorescence, scale, or possibly something else and how to confirm? I didn’t expect efflorescence to come through epoxy grout, but never specifically looked into it. It seems to mostly scrape off without much effort. Used only my fingernails, but didn’t get it all off on any individual tile.
View attachment 567049

If anyone wonders about my levels see below (average over this month)
FC 7.2
pH 7.8
TA 90
CH 356
CYA 65
Salt 2800
CSI 0.0

That is our hard water here in AZ. Most pools (especially homes in the West and NW Valley) have a line of calcium at the water line, and in locations similar to yours. There is not much you can do to prevent it. Keep your PH on the lower side and it will help to some extent. We also use a sealant when blasting that helps for some pools, and doesn't for others. Otherwise, all you can do is blast it off every 2-3 years.

 

[proavia]

That is our hard water here in AZ. Most pools (especially homes in the West and NW Valley) have a line of calcium at the water line, and in locations similar to yours. There is not much you can do to prevent it. Keep your PH on the lower side and it will help to some extent. We also use a sealant when blasting that helps for some pools, and doesn't for others. Otherwise, all you can do is blast it off every 2-3 years.

Pretty much the same issue in the SE valley.
What is this sealant you speak of?

Use of a water softener, plumbed to the autofill, really helps keep the calcium levels under control.
That, along with keeping CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 range will minimize calcium scale buildup.
Our high evaporation rates will still leave a bit of a white deposit at the waterline.

 

[Dirk]

Use of a water softener, plumbed to the autofill, really helps keep the calcium levels under control.
That, along with keeping CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 range will minimize calcium scale buildup.

My pool's previous owners didn't do either. And I do both. My pool is virtually a controlled experiment that can verify these claims.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Question on managing pH and chlorine while on short 3-day vacation.
pH - The pH has been rising 0.2 per day pretty regularly for the last few weeks so I was thinking of getting the pH down to 7.2 before I leave figuring it won't get past 8.0 before I'm back. Is there anything to be concerned about with this approach? Note I have been keeping the pH in a tight range of 7.8 to 8.0. Doing so is a bit of a chore as the pool needs 12oz of acid every day as the pH climbs 0.2 per day. My TA has been 80 over the last three weeks. I know pH tends to rise faster when it is at low ranges, so I plan to do a dry run to see how it behaves.

Chlorine - I've been keeping FC up around 9. I know I'll have to bump up the SWG a few times as we head into the summer. The SWG still has the low salt level red LED on (it's reading has been bouncing between 2650 and 2700 and my last test 2 weeks ago was 2800) but it seems to be generating fine, so I was thinking of leaving it alone. Would it be advisable to add some salt to ensure the SWG doesn't mistakenly read too low and shut off while I'm gone.

Update on cleaning tile
I got the light duty pads that @Dirk suggested and gave them a go. It worked to remove some of the build up, but wouldn't get it all. So I had a chisel scraper and decided to use that on the tile. It removed the build up with a little effort. Only challenge is some of the build up is on the curved edge of the tile as it meets the grout line, so it doesn't clean it up as much as I'd like. I used the pads after using the scraper, and it did a pretty good job. Since I've got epoxy grout, I'm going to get the heavier duty pads and see if that will remove all the build up without having to use the scraper.

We also use a sealant when blasting that helps for some pools, and doesn't for others.

Hey @mbdesa what sealant do you use? By the way, my fill water comes through the water softener and my calcium last tested at 350.

 

[proavia]

For your rising pH....
Dose to 7.2 and enjoy your time away. You can dose again on your return if needed.

Bump your salt level up slightly to keep the low salt light off.
Add 5%-10% to the SWG output before you leave. Having FC a little high is better than a little low.