a Q about phospates

[JamesW]

Scientific discoveries often start with a hypothesis.

I agree, but they should use the correct term (hypothesis) and not theory.

Studies require a specific hypothesis and properly designed tests that can support or disprove the hypothesis.

Studies usually require carefully controlled conditions and control groups.

Anecdotes and speculation can be useful if you have enough examples, but they are not sufficient to provide a conclusive determination about anything.

A hypothesis is an assumption, something proposed for the sake of argument so that it can be tested to see if it might be true.

In the scientific method, the hypothesis is constructed before any applicable research has been done, apart from a basic background review. You ask a question, read up on what has been studied before, and then form a hypothesis.

A hypothesis is usually tentative, an assumption or suggestion made strictly for the objective of being tested.

A theory, in contrast, is a principle that has been formed as an attempt to explain things that have already been substantiated by data.

This is the Difference Between a Hypothesis and a Theory

In scientific reasoning, they're two completely different things

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[JamesW]

A hypothesis is a tentative explanation of an observation that can be tested.

It acts as a starting point for further explanation.

Theory, on the other hand, is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that’s well-justified by facts, tested hypotheses, and laws.



From the above differences, we can infer that a hypothesis might change significantly as the testing occurs.

A hypothesis can either be right or wrong.

When a hypothesis is tested and proved true, it becomes a theory.

https://byjus.com/biology/difference-between-hypothesis-and-theory/

 

[mas985]

All true James and having spent most of my career in R&D labs, I am fairly well versed in scientific principles but I don't believe I was calling it a theory. Just posting an article.

 

[Newdude]

Not that I'm anyone that matters, but I'm entirely open that we may one day find that phosphates matter for some SWG users, similar to how they can be an issue in rare cases for LC users with phosphates well into the thousands.

My original point that phosphates are a scare tactic by the pool store still stands.

 

[JamesW]

I don't believe I was calling it a theory. Just posting an article.

The article used the word "theoretical", which is what I was objecting to.

Most people misuse the word theoretical when they actually mean hypothetical.

 

[JamesW]

They said my Phos was 655 and the ideal range is 0-100.

The OP reports a phosphate level of 655 ppb.

That is pretty low and probably nothing to be concerned about.

If they were getting a lot of unexplained scale and they had phosphate levels well above 1,000 ppb, then phosphates might be something to consider.

Lab results confirmed that the buffer in the acid the pool operators were using was indeed phosphate-based.

"I then got samples of the solid material that was plugging up the heat exchangers in the heater and sent it to a research lab so they could do x-ray diffraction on the material," Hales says.

"And they determined that the material that was plugging up the heater was calcium phosphate."

The Case of the Mysterious Pool Deposits

The 80,000-gallon resort pool, which had been operating flawlessly for years, had suddenly developed a very expensive, very troubling problem.

www.aquamagazine.com

 

[JamesW]

Most articles about phosphates seem to come from Terry Arko.

He makes claims with zero substantiation for those claims.

In my opinion, it is mostly speculation and conjecture presented as confirmed fact.

At the level of 500 ppb there will be a definite interference with salt chlorine generators to produce enough free available chlorine (FAC).

The Basics on Phosphates in Pools

Phosphates Defined Phosphates are biological building blocks that are formed when phosphoric acid comes in contact with certain metals. Most of the natural sources are found in rivers, lakes and […]

www.poolmagazine.com

Terry Arko has more than 40 years’ experience in the recreational water industry, working in service, repair, retail sales, chemical manufacturing, technical service, commercial sales, and product development.

He has written over 100 published articles on water chemistry.

He is a member on the board of the Recreational Water Air Quality Committee (RWAQC).

He is also a Certified Pool Operator instructor with the Pool Hot Tub Alliance (PHTA) and is head of instructors for the Pool Chemistry Training Institute PCTI Pool Chemistry Certified Residential Course.

Terry is currently working as Technical Content and Product Training Manager for HASA Pool, makers of HASA Sani-Clor.

He can be reached at [email protected].

Terry Arko, Author at PoolMagazine.com - Get The Latest Pool News

Pool & Spa News – Swimming Pool Industry News for Pool Builders, Pool Service & Pool Equipment

www.poolmagazine.com

 

[JamesW]

The production of SWGs can be measured by looking at the amperage.

Aquarite gives the amperage and this will prove how much the output of the SWG is.

If the Aquarite instant salinity reading is accurate, then the cell is producing the amount of chlorine it is designed to produce.

For any SWG, you can measure the amperage and this will tell you the production.

If a SWG is underproducing, then the amperage will be lower than it should be.

The Aquarite is the only SWG where it is easy to tell if it is producing the correct amount of chlorine because the salinity reading is based on the production.

For other SWGs, you need to know what the expected amperage is for that cell, the salinity and the water temperature.

The Intellichlor IC 40 tries to maintain 7.5 amps and if it cannot maintain the correct amperage, then it will give a Cell light error.

It can increase the voltage up to a specific limit.

If the cell cannot maintain the current at the highest voltage, then it will flash the cell light.

Warmer water increases the current at the same salinity.

If the cell is scaled, the current will go down.

The AquaPure also tries to maintain a specific current and if it cannot maintain the current, then if will give a warning LED.

 

[JamesW]

For a new Aquarite cell the instant salinity should match a test from a K-1766 salt test (+/- 400 ppm).

To get the performance of the cell, divide the instant salinity by the actual salinity.

At about 4 to 7 years, the cell will begin to underperform and the instant salinity will be lower than the actual salinity as measured by a reliable test kit.

If the ratio is less than 75%, it's time for a new cell or you can maybe prolong the cell by changing the cell type to a smaller cell type in the settings menu.

For example, 2,000 (instant salinity) ÷ 3,600 (measured salinity with a test kit)=56%.

Check the cell and clean it if necessary.

If that doesn't work, it's time for a new cell.

If a new cell is underperforming by a significant amount, it might be a bad cell and this can be tested at a testing station.

 

[mas985]

The Aquarite is the only SWG where it is easy to tell if it is producing the correct amount of chlorine because the salinity reading is based on the production.

AquaRite, AquaLogic, ProLogic, OmniLogic, and all other Hayward SWGs do this.

 

[JamesW]

Signature
19k gallon, Wet Edge pebble tech May 2016 (replaster); SWG (new 2020) T-15 40k
Hayward variable speed pump (new 2021) /Shark for cleaning
New - filled 10/18/14 - TFP 100 test kit.

If the Instant Salinity is correct, then the cell is producing at its rated production.

However, the cell is 4 years old and any underproduction could be simply from the cell getting worn down.

You should have a K-1766 salt test.

I also recommend getting a second and third test using other methods like a conductivity meter to verify the salinity periodically because it can be tricky to get an accurate salinity reading.

I would never rely on any single salinity test.

 

[JamesW]

I’ll just add that there are studies that show phosphates can coat the plates on swcg and limit their ability to produce chlorine.

A proper "Study" or test would involve multiple pools and the ability to isolate the phosphate level as the test variable.

A proper study involves statistics that can isolate the test variable to a specific level of certainty.

The study would have to show that the production of chlorine was affected by the phosphate level and exactly how the production was affected.

For example, a proper study might provide a graph of the production vs. the phosphate level that shows when the phosphate level begins to affect the performance and how the production is affected by increasing levels of phosphates.

This would need to be done using different pools in a way that you could statistically isolate the phosphates as the relevant variable.

You would also have to consider variables like CYA level, calcium hardness levels, water temperature, pH, TA, CSI, UV exposure etc.

 

[Pool_Medic]

For years phosphates were added to water plants to help protect copper pipes, so there must be some truth there somewhere.

 

[JamesW]

For years phosphates were added to water plants to help protect copper pipes, so there must be some truth there somewhere.

Cheerios contains trisodium phosphate or tripotassium phosphate.

 

[JamesW]

so there must be some truth there somewhere.

This is merely speculation with zero references to any studies that show what effects different levels of phosphates have on SWG production.

 

[Pool_Medic]

Yeah ok, uncle, you guys know it all

 

[JamesW]

I am not saying that I know what effect phosphates have, or might have, at different levels.

My main point is that reports of adverse effects are not supported by any scientific studies as far as I am aware of.

It seems to me that the speculation has become regarded as fact by manufacturers and Pool companies.

In any case, I have given some idea how to see if the cell is producing in the range that it is supposed to be producing.

 

[mas985]

This is merely speculation with zero references to any studies that show what effects different levels of phosphates have on SWG production.

While there is no evidence it is true, there is also no evidence it is false.

 

[JamesW]

I’ll just add that there are studies that show phosphates can coat the plates on swcg and limit their ability to produce chlorine.

If you claim that there are studies, then you should be able to provide a link to the studies.

Who did the studies?

When were the studies done?

What were the exact conclusions?

 

[JamesW]

While there is no evidence it is true, there is also no evidence it is false.

The person making a claim has to provide the support for their claim.

Maybe aliens are causing the SWGs to underperform?

There is no evidence to say that this speculation is false.

However, this does nothing to support the speculation as being true.