replacing filter pump, controller, and adding swg: planning and advice

[agonista]

i am planning to replace several components of my existing pool equipment and replumb some pvc, and i wanted to get input on my plans to avoid making poor equipment or plumbing decisions. my biggest concern is getting the correct filter pump. the work would be performed over the next several weeks.

the rough plan is as follows:

* replace existing filter pump (smf waterway 120, 2 hp) with pentair intelliflo3 3 hp (no io board)
* adjust pvc to connect new filter pump to existing pentair cartridge filter (ccp 420, already installed)
* replace existing jandy aqualinks RS controller with a new pentair one
* add swg, plumb pvc to it, connect to new pentair controller

based on my reading of posts on this forum, i am to understand it is ideal to have the filter pump, swg, and controller all from the same manufacturer to ensure they work together properly, thus my going with pentair here. i attempted to replace the 2 hp single speed motor on the existing pump with a 1.6 hp variable speed motor, and the pump would no longer prime. as a result of this experience, i expect i need the 3 hp intelliflo3 pump because the 1.5 hp one may very well not prime. i have no other pumps or similar that i need to control from the filter pump, so i don't think i need or want the io board option.

the things i'm looking on feedback for specifically are:

* does the intelliflo3 3 hp, no io board, sound like the right choice for the new pump?
* should i get the touchscreen option on this pump? i'm totally fine with a very basic ui with a few buttons
* should i have check valves installed before and/or after the pump to hold prime better? there are no such valves in place currently
* how should the pvc run from the pump to the filter be plumbed? my prior pool guy ran the pvc from pump up above the filter intake, then down to the filter intake
* advice on which controller and swg to install

 

[HermanTX]

does the intelliflo3 3 hp, no io board, sound like the right choice for the new pump?
* should i get the touchscreen option on this pump? i'm totally fine with a very basic ui with a few buttons
* should i have check valves installed before and/or after the pump to hold prime better? there are no such valves in place currently
* how should the pvc run from the pump to the filter be plumbed? my prior pool guy ran the pvc from pump up above the filter intake, then down to the filter intake
* advice on which controller and swg to install

If the IntelliFlo3 3Hp pump is replacing the 2Hp single speed then it should be fine.
Is your pump level, below or above the nominal pool water level. If the single speed pump was priming good then the new VS pump should be fine without a check valve. Pictures will help.
A picture of your set up would help - the outlet of the pump should be kept level to the filter inlet if possible. What was the reason the pipe made a U above the filter?
Suggest you put a Tee in the pipe before the filter inlet as an optional drain line if that is allowed in your area. It makes it easy to do small drains if needed.
We recommend a SWCG to be rated 2x your pool volume, so an IC60 would be best for your pool
Suggest the Pentair IntelliCenter as that is the latest technology and supported by Pentair and many members on the forum.

 

[agonista]

If the IntelliFlo3 3Hp pump is replacing the 2Hp single speed then it should be fine.
Is your pump level, below or above the nominal pool water level. If the single speed pump was priming good then the new VS pump should be fine without a check valve. Pictures will help.

the pool equipment is behind part of the house, so it's a bit tricky for me to determine the height of the pool equipment pad relative to the pool water level. it is at roughly the same height, but i will check with a laser level. the existing pump primes fine without a check valve, so i will punt on adding check valves.

A picture of your set up would help - the outlet of the pump should be kept level to the filter inlet if possible. What was the reason the pipe made a U above the filter?

i'm not setup to be able to easily get photos from my phone to the machine where i'm posting, so that will have to wait. the now-former pool maintenance guy plumbed the U up from the pump, over, down, then into the filter inlet. he did this without any input from me, so i cannot explain why he did it. it seemed incorrect, thus my asking about it.

Suggest you put a Tee in the pipe before the filter inlet as an optional drain line if that is allowed in your area. It makes it easy to do small drains if needed.

i already plumbed in a diverter valve between the pump and filter for exactly the reason you cite (ability to vacuum to waste / perform partial drain). i will be adding another diverter when i replumb the pvc.

We recommend a SWCG to be rated 2x your pool volume, so an IC60 would be best for your pool
Suggest the Pentair IntelliCenter as that is the latest technology and supported by Pentair and many members on the forum.

thanks for the recommendations, i will read up on those products before acquiring them.

i have a few accessories that are specific to the jandy aqualinks rs controller that i suspect i will have to replace with corresponding pentair accessories, e.g. remote control lcd with buttons inside house, 4 button control next to spa, and multicolor led pool lights. any information about whether i will need to replace these accessories with the controller or which accessories i should replace them with would be welcome.

 

[HermanTX]

i have a few accessories that are specific to the jandy aqualinks rs controller that i suspect i will have to replace with corresponding pentair accessories, e.g. remote control lcd with buttons inside house, 4 button control next to spa, and multicolor led pool lights. any information about whether i will need to replace these accessories with the controller or which accessories i should replace them with would be welcome

Pool lights should be able to be controlled by any controller but it would be best to verify by looking at the operating manual for that controller. I know the Jandy AquaLink will control some Pentair lights. With regard to spa controller and inside console you will need to change those out, but need to ask if you really need them. Now you will have control via your phone app so it is really necessary to have these other controllers? My spa control broke so I just cut and capped the wires, then filled in the hole with cement. I just use a phone app to change heat setting or turn on air blower.

 

[agonista]

i've had a closer look at the dimensions for this particular pump and what i would have to do to install it in my existing setup:

* the pool is roughly 15 years old
* all the suction side piping (3 skimmers, main drain, pool sweep) is connected such that the inlet pipe to the existing pump has an on-center height of roughly 10.2" above the pad
* per the specs for the intelliflo3 3hp, the on-center inlet pipe height is 9.1", which is a bit over 1" lower than what i have
* the existing inlet pipe has just over the minimum 5x pipe diameter straight segment, per pump install instructions
* adjusting all the suction side pvc down to accommodate the lower inlet pipe height would require a lot of work

after looking at the existing setup, my plan is to get plastic shims (broadfix is what i see online) to adjust the height of the filter pump upwards to match the existing inlet pipe height.

i think i have a better idea of why the former pool guy routed the pump outlet to the filter inlet the way he did. the piping goes up 9", horizontal for 16", down 8", and then horizontal into the filter inlet. i expect he did this to emulate the 10" of straight pipe on the inlet side. when reading the installation manual for the intelliflo3, i did not see anything about suggesting that the outlet pipe be straight for roughly 5x the pipe diameter, but the logic of having sections of straight pipe before and after the pump may make sense from the perspective of avoiding creation of undue load on the pump. the new pump specs show the outlet height as 11.2" and my filter inlet is at 15.5" on-center, so if i did not route the pipe similarly to the prior pool guy and instead aim to avoid going up and down as much, it would require a 90 degree elbow just a few inches above the pump outlet.

 

[HermanTX]

after looking at the existing setup, my plan is to get plastic shims (broadfix is what i see online) to adjust the height of the filter pump upwards to match the existing inlet pipe height.

I used an old thick outdoor mat or one used in a garage. They are good to raise the height of the pump and uniform for the whole base.

i think i have a better idea of why the former pool guy routed the pump outlet to the filter inlet the way he did. the piping goes up 9", horizontal for 16", down 8", and then horizontal into the filter inlet. i expect he did this to emulate the 10" of straight pipe on the inlet side. when reading the installation manual for the intelliflo3, i did not see anything about suggesting that the outlet pipe be straight for roughly 5x the pipe diameter, but the logic of having sections of straight pipe before and after the pump may make sense from the perspective of avoiding creation of undue load on the pump. the new pump specs show the outlet height as 11.2" and my filter inlet is at 15.5" on-center, so if i did not route the pipe similarly to the prior pool guy and instead aim to avoid going up and down as much, it would require a 90 degree elbow just a few inches above the pump outlet.

The 5x pipe diameter is not critical for entrance into the suction side of pump. Just so a 90 deg is not connected direclty to the inlet.

Same on exit side - any short straight before a bend. Could you also consider use of 2x 45 deg fittings? A picture would help visualize what you are dealing with.

 

[Dirk]

Considerations...

Others here will swear they make no difference, but I like using sweep 90s wherever possible. There was an experiment that found they help with flow a bit, though there was debate about how well that experiment was done. Two 45s were also in that test. The sweeps just make sense to me, and I know they don't hurt. It's the same reason I wouldn't want a tee to be the first thing the pump output runs into, just a nice smooth sweep for me! If you make use of this advice, be sure the sweep is a true schedule 40 PVC sweep and NOT a DWV sweep you'll find at a big box store.

This is the type you'd want:



This is not (note the difference in the amount of glue surface of the flanges, and the "DWV" letters):



I might add a tee elsewhere for draining, but not right on top of the pump. I have a small sump pump for draining my pool, which is a much more efficient way to remove water. It also acts as my backup circulation pump should anything go wrong with my main pump. $50-100 for a decent sump pump, worth it to have a backup on hand. I don't have that spigot, and have never needed it. I wanted the least amount of fittings as possible between pump and filter, and sweeps whenever possible. I do have a couple of unfortunate 45s, but that's better than two 90s. And a nice straight run in front of the pump. Sweeps galore (for the suction manifold, coming out of the SWG, everywhere). Sweeps are only about twice the price, so what are we talking, another 20 bucks for the entire replumb?



Speaking of which, I regret selling my old pump for $100. I should have kept it as a backup. Even more true today in light of recent inflation and supply issues. What are you going to do if your main pump needs repair or replacement and it'll take a couple weeks (or months!) to get the pump going again? The previously-mentioned sump pump can work in a pinch, but that won't work as well and won't provide any filtering. Or you can slap in your old pump and be fine for as long as the repair takes. Just stash it somewhere in your garage and forget about it. You won't be able to sell it for much anyway.

 

[Dirk]

To belabor... Your new SWG will require a minimum amount of flow to function. It'll shut itself down if it senses the flow is too low. Which means it's going to be your SWG that determines what RPM you'll be running that new pump at, most of the time. That translates directly to its energy costs, so the better the flow the better your electric bill. You want your plumbing to help out as much as possible: minimize runs and fittings and twists and turns as much as possible, everywhere, both on the suction side and the pressure side of the pump. Flow is constant throughout your plumbing, so your flow will be determined by the weakest links anywhere along the chain. Some folks claim to be able to satisfy their SWG flow with just 1200 RPM. Others need closer to 2000 RPM. I get away with about 1500. The variable is the plumbing routing! Point being, once your plumbing is done, it's going to be what it's going to be. Best to try and enhance flow now anyway you can, because once the glue dries, your pump/SWG running costs will be locked in.

There is also debate here about just how important it is to have those straight runs in front of your pump, and in front of your SWG. They make sense to me, and Pentair adds those spec's to the installation instructions of both components (for good reason, I contend). I just don't see the logic of ignoring the manufacturer's installation recommendations. Plan your plumbing to achieve both those straight runs, as much as possible. Again, it cannot be argued that they hurt the performance of either the pump or the SWG in any way, so why not do it right?

 

[Dirk]

Here's the thread I was first involved in that debates the various ways to "turn" water one way or another. Unfortunately, the link to the experiment I referred to is now dead.

90 degree elbows or 45s?

I'm looking at re-doing all of the plumbing on my pool between now and next spring. I have about a dozen 90 degree elbows (not street elbows) on my equipment pad and am considering replacing each one with two 45 degree elbows. Will this significnatly reduce my head pressure or should I just...

www.troublefreepool.com

I perused it again, and still have the same conclusion. Sweeps won't have a negative impact on flow, and might have a positive one. The number of turns is more critical, as is the diameter of the pipes and fittings (1.5" vs 2" vs 2.5" etc).

 

[mas985]

Just for some clarification, the discrepancy is with the 45's and not the sweep. According the data from Engineering Toolbox (see below), 45's and sweeps have about the same amount of head loss but it is more than half of that of the 90 Elbow. The issue is when you use two 45s to replace an 90, according to that chart, the head loss will be more and not less although this disagrees with some other data so there is still some discrepancy.

However, if you replace the 90 Ell with a sweep 90, the head loss is less and I don't believe there is any discrepancy with the sweep as it should always have less head loss than a 90 ELL as long as the other parts of the plumbing are the same.

What still remains is that those fittings probably comprise less than 10% of the total head loss in a plumbing setup so the impact is going to be muted. Also, as was mentioned in the other post, upsizing the plumbing will more than make up for the difference between sweeps and 90 Ells so if the goal is to improve efficiency, upsizing the pipe is a better option.

For comparison, if I had swapped out ALL the 90 Ells in my setup with sweeps, the change in operating point for my pump would be the following:

Existing Plumbing @ 3450 RPM
35.63' Head @ 66.1 GPM & 984 watts

Replace 90 Ells with Sweeps @ 3435 RPM (same flow rate as the above case)
35.07' Head @ 66.1 GPM & 972 watts

12 watt delta and would be much less at lower speeds (< 2 watt at half RPM).

 

[Dirk]

Mark, thanks for the data. I wasn't crazy then, sweeps help some. I used them for anything new I was doing, and that's all I would ever suggest. If it's just as easy to use a sweep, use a sweep!

The two 45s I mentioned were instead of two 90s (not one), so I'm going to assume that a 45 is somewhat better than a 90.

You mentioned the 12W delta. Not much to sing about. But what's more important is watt-hours. Rough math (correct me, please, if I'm wrong): that's 12 watt-hours x 8 hours = 96 Wh per day or 2,880 per month or 35kWh per year or maybe 800kWh for the life of your pool. I would think that might justify the added expense of sweeps. I realize I did that with your 3435 RPM math, so the actual energy cost savings of sweeps would be considerably less. But still...

Let's see, the 'net has some wildly differing rates. I found both 28.38¢ per kWh in CA vs another site at 19.90¢ per kWh. Average that to 24.14. So .2414 x 800,000 = $193.12 over the life of my pool (if I ran my pump like a mad man, which I don't, of course). At normal SWG speeds, it might be a wash to use sweeps. It's certainly not something to fret about, or tear your pad apart to achieve. I think that's the real issue: sweeps will improve flow, and cost you less in electricity, but will that savings ever pay for the sweeps!? More so when we were all using single speed pumps, now-a-days... not so much.

I used them for my solar heater, as I needed quite a slew of them to get from pad to roof. Don't regret it. Pumping the water is the only cost of heating my pool (which I have to pump anyway for my SWG), so I figure every little bit helps. I do that at about 2200RPM, so the sweeps are going to factor.

Now none of this math accounts for the guaranteed rise in energy costs. Which might even probably be somewhat exponential over the next decades. But I have PV solar, so I'm just blowing smoke because I don't even pay for electricity anymore anyway! So just ignore me (always sound advice)!

 

[mas985]

The two 45s I mentioned were instead of two 90s (not one), so I'm going to assume that a 45 is somewhat better than a 90.

Correct, replacing a 90 with a 45 is an improvement

You mentioned the 12W delta. Not much to sing about. But what's more important is watt-hours. Rough math (correct me, please, if I'm wrong): that's 12 watt-hours x 8 hours = 96 Wh per day or 2,880 per month or 35kWh per year or maybe 800kWh for the life of your pool. I would think that might justify the added expense of sweeps. I realize I did that with your 3435 RPM math, so the actual energy cost savings of sweeps would be considerably less. But still...

12W at full speed but most would never do that for 8 hours per day. At half speed, the delta is less than 2W or about 1/6th. But again, these are for my pool pump & plumbing.

The OP is in FL so even at 24/7, that might mean about 17.5 kwh per year and at $0.10/kwh, that would be about $1.75/year so not a huge impact.

 

[agonista]

based on mas985's data, that suggests a ~1% power savings, which is pretty minor. i bought some sweeps anyways, so i will install them.

after ordering and receiving the flat plastic shims (broadfix 1" x 4"), it is clear they are not suitable for shimming an outdoor pump. i'm switching to a combination of 7/8" tall anti vibration pads combined with a few layers of 1/8" and 1/16" thick 60A hardness silicone mat. i chose silicone here because it is one of several uv resistant rubbers, and uv seems to be the dominant factor with weathering here in FL.

if anyone else has suggestions for better types of rubbers to use for shimming, i would be interested to hear them. i saw several types of rubber recommended as being uv resistant.

 

[Dirk]

if anyone else has suggestions for better types of rubbers to use for shimming,

How about paint. If one of those layers you're going to use is paintable, put it on top and paint it with some latex paint that has any sort of UV inhibitor. Or pretty much any exterior paint. The same paint with which you painted your pad's PVC plumbing.

 

[agonista]

i've done the install and ended up running the pvc in roughly the same fashion as the previous pool guy.

now that i have the intelliflo pump in place, i am under the impression that the best approach with the existing jandy aqualinks rs controller is to just set the filter pump to run 24 hrs a day and then program the pump itself to control the start and stop times. i see advice in the pool school wiki entries that i should target a turnover of roughly 1 x the pool volume a day. this would mean running 15 hrs / day at the default 30 gal / hr rate that the pump runs at out of the box. any thoughts for the speed and runtime to target?

i am under the impression that it is best to run at a lower speed for longer to minimize power usage, but there may be other factors to consider, e.g. suction at filter baskets, mixing via returns.

 

[Dirk]

The formula for runtime is simple: there is no formula. Forget what you've read, you have to figure out your own runtime, because every pool is different. Size, depth, functions (heater, SWG, water features, etc), number of skimmers and returns, and the "dirtiness" of the environment are some of the variables that determine runtime.

Some pools benefit from 24/7, others can get away with a few hours a day during "cheap electricity" time. Here's what you do.

If you have a heater, or an SWG, one of those will determine the minimum runtime. The pump must run to satisfy one or both of those features. But if you're not running either, then really runtime is determined aesthetically. A chlorine pool needs very little runtime to distribute the required chlorine. So it really comes down to filtering and skimming. Start with six hours a day. If your water is crystal clear after a few days, and there are no leaves on the surface or on the bottom (and they're all in the skimmer), then you can decrease your runtime an hour at a time until you start to see cloudy water or too many leaves here and there. Conversely, if six hours a day leaves your pool cloudy or with leaves about, start increasing runtime until the pool's "cleanliness" is to your liking. You can see why this would be different for every pool.

And you'll find your runtime varies by season: more summertime users might mean more runtime to filter out their "leavings." Fall time might need more runtime to gather the leaves in the skimmer. Winter might only need a few hours a day. You'll get the hang of it.

That all is to say: forget about turnover (that's a myth) or formulas you might have found on the 'net. You figure out the runtime that works for you and your pool.

Now I'll hand it over to the 24/7 crowd, who have their own ideas about why that's the way to go.

Oh, one last point, a VS pump adds another dynamic. You can experiment with RPMs in the exact same way. Heaters and SWGs will need a minimum RPM to function, but otherwise you can fool with RPM settings, combined with runtime, to get the best results for your particular pool and your particular electricity tier structure. Hint: start in the 1500RPM range, at six hours. See how the skimmer does. See how the filter does. Adjust either or both RPM and runtime, up or down, or one up the other down, to get the best result.

 

[ScudBar61]

How about paint. If one of those layers you're going to use is paintable, put it on top and paint it with some latex paint that has any sort of UV inhibitor. Or pretty much any exterior paint. The same paint with which you painted your pad's PVC plumbing.

Just curious, what is the advantage to painting your plumbing?

 

[HermanTX]

Just curious, what is the advantage to painting your plumbing?

It delays the effect of UV to breakdown PVC. If your plumbing is shaded or in a shed then paint not needed.

 

[mas985]

i see advice in the pool school wiki entries that i should target a turnover of roughly 1 x the pool volume a day.

You need to read that Wiki again. It says to ignore turnover advice as it does not have a high correlation to water quality.

 

[ajw22]

i i see advice in the pool school wiki entries that i should target a turnover of roughly 1 x the pool volume a day. .

Where did you read that?

Turnover of Pool Water - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com