Hey - Looking Forward to Learning the TFP Method

[mashanks1]

Hey everyone, Just getting started taking over our pool. It's a 38x16 (x20 with sundeck) inground pool and spa. We have some benches, steps, and sundeck in the pool so I'm guestimating that we have about 22,200 gal of water, counting the 8x8 spa. Its a gunite pool with PebbleTech pebblesheen for the surface.

We had the PB's Pool School and their pool service team come out and service it once a week for the first 6 weeks and now we have decided to take it over ourselves versus paying the $380 a month for cleaning and chemicals. Up to this point I have only been instructed to add 31% MA daily. First 3 weeks it was 2 pints a day, the last 3 weeks was 1 pint per day. Service guy was also adding Trichor tabs to the skimmers weekly (according to him they are "standard 3" pucks" - not sure how many oz. they are).

As the water temps are only hovering around 59-62* currently. We haven't added salt to the pool to run the Hayward TCELL940 SWG. Wondering when should I start adding salt? Its been nice out lately, but looking at some temps in the low 30's at night over the next couple weeks. -- I'm near Charlotte, NC.

I recently discovered the TFP forum and I am trying to learn all that I can as I have never owned a pool before. The pool looks great, super clear beside the pollen that has started hitting it. We haven't been able to enjoy the pool yet, but we've been in the hot tub 2 or 3 times already.

I've updated my signature to show pool equipment. Here are my PoolMath Logs for ease of access. Here is the testing equipment I have now (or waiting on shipments to arrive):

• Taylor K-2005 Kit (from PB)
• LaMotte #2086 ColorQ 2X Pro 7 (noticed after I started using it that its not recommended here)
• Taylor K-1515A (arriving soon)
• Taylor K-1766 (arriving soon)
• Taylor SpeedStir (arriving soon)
• Hair Nets (arriving soon)

So far I've been trying to use both the Taylor kit and LaMotte to see the differences. They haven't been to far off based on my last two tests:

Taylor | ColorQ
pH: ----- Test 1 = 7.4 | 7.3 ------ : Test 2 = 8+ | 7.9
FC: -----Test 1 = 1 | 1.16 ------ : Test 2 = 2 | 1.74
CC: -----Test 1 = 0 | 0 ------ : Test 2 = 0 | 0 (this was created by TC - FC)
TC: -----Test 1 = 1 | 1.17 ------ : Test 2 = 2 | 1.74
TA: -----Test 1 = 60 | 79 ------ : Test 2 = 70 | 80
CH: -----Test 1 = 280 | 291 ------ : Test 2 = 300 | 324
CYA: -----Test 1 = ? | 10 ------ : Test 2 = 0-30 | 17

On the CYA test, the first time I felt like I could see the dot the whole time. Second test I felt like it disappeared when the test tube was full. I was also staring down the thing vs 'glancing' that someone on here mentioned. I was also doing this inside my kitchen. So could be the tester. Or it could be that my levels are just too low. I have only entered the data on PoolMath from the Taylor drop tests as that seems to be the only thing TFP trusts.

Right now we have the pump running the majority of the day on a schedule that I created - this was before finding TFP and getting no real help elsewhere. Please let me know how it looks. We do enjoy seeing/listening to the spillover from the spa to pool:

• 5am-7am = 100%
• 7am-10am = 50%
• 10am-7pm = 75%
• 7pm-11pm = 50%

Is this completely overkill? It needs to run to use the spillover right? Should I run it more on a different %?

So my next questions on how to proceed:

• Should I wait for outside temps to be more consistent before adding Salt and running the SWG?
• The TriChlor tabs were added on Monday. They are close to being done. I believe they add Chlorine as well as raise CYA levels. Should I wait for those to run out before adding any more chlorine since my FC levels are at 2 now or should I toss what is left and start adding Bleach and CYA? Add both at the same time or wait a few days/hours between?
• With the pool being new, the pH levels keep rising, but I'm following along with PoolMath to add 31%MA to bring it back down. Can that be added same time as Bleach/CYA?
• Now that I have already paid for the ColorQ, what is the best way to keep using it without creating a paperweight? Okay to use it a few times a week, but only enter Taylor numbers into the app?
• Is Hair Nets / Socks the best method to get rid of pollen?
• Anything else I should be looking for right now?

Thanks - Mark

 

[DrewLG]

Right now we have the pump running the majority of the day on a schedule that I created - this was before finding TFP and getting no real help elsewhere. Please let me know how it looks. We do enjoy seeing/listening to the spillover from the spa to pool:

• 5am-7am = 100%
• 7am-10am = 50%
• 10am-7pm = 75%
• 7pm-11pm = 50%

Is this completely overkill? It needs to run to use the spillover right? Should I run it more on a different %?

Welcome, and congratulations on the new pool -- it looks amazing.

Your pump schedule is probably way overkill, yes. You're likely using (and paying for) many times more electricity than necessary.

It's easy to figure out what speed to run the pump, and for how long. But first, how are you getting the spillway to work? Are you switching your valves into a Spillway configuration, or are you just leaving them in the Pool configuration and raising the pump speed?

• Should I wait for outside temps to be more consistent before adding Salt and running the SWG?

You should wait for your Taylor salt test to arrive. Then you can add salt whether or not the temperature is high enough to start running the SWG.

• The TriChlor tabs were added on Monday. They are close to being done. I believe they add Chlorine as well as raise CYA levels. Should I wait for those to run out before adding any more chlorine since my FC levels are at 2 now or should I toss what is left and start adding Bleach and CYA? Add both at the same time or wait a few days/hours between?

It won't do any harm to leave the tabs in until they dissolve. You should add CYA to get to 30 or 40 ppm for now (CYA takes some time to dissolve and dissipate, so add conservatively and test after 24 hours before adding more). Add bleach to get to 4 or 5 ppm for now (if your FAS-DPD test hasn't arrived yet, measure the best you can with the tests you have, or just use Pool Math to estimate how much bleach to add).

Generally speaking, you should add chemicals in front of a return with the pump running, and wait 15-30 minutes between chemical types (see How long to wait between adding pool chemicals).

CYA should be added using the sock method (see Recommended Pool Chemicals).

• Now that I have already paid for the ColorQ, what is the best way to keep using it without creating a paperweight? Okay to use it a few times a week, but only enter Taylor numbers into the app?

If it were me, I'd try to sell it on Ebay or Craigslist. Seems sorta pointless to use both a reliable test and an unreliable one.

• Is Hair Nets / Socks the best method to get rid of pollen?

Hair nets are the best way to catch larger skimmed debris, keeping it out of the filter so you can go longer between filter cleanings. They may or may not catch pollen; whatever they miss will be caught by the filter.

 

[Newdude]

Hey Mashanks and Welcome !!!!

Your CYA is likely just low. The industry doesn't pay it much mind and while long term use of tabs raises CYA to unmanagable levels, short term use doesn't add up to much.

20 and under is sketchy at best to try and read, so never go too crazy when its low. Just add 10s until you can read 30. I'd add 20 this time, assuming you have 10 or so in there now.

Also, WAY to do your homework. You got a great grip on it so far for a first time poster.

 

[mashanks1]

Thank you. I’m trying to do as much homework as possible. Where is the best place to buy CYA?

Also having trouble finding bleach that lists the % or that doesn’t seem to have some thickening agent or color max. Does anyone have a link to Amazon or Lowes or somewhere so that I can see the bottle that you all are referring to?

I’m just about out of the 31%MA that the PB gave me, this is all my local Lowes has, is this okay to purchase - 1-Gallon Etches Concrete Remover https://www.lowes.com/pd/Klean-Strip-1-Gallon-Safer-Muriatic-Acid/3036169

Thanks!

 

[Texas Splash]

Where is the best place to buy CYA?

Your local hardware store's pool section, Walmart, Amazon,, etc. Look for granular stabilizer (Cyanuric Acid) 99%-100% pure.

Also having trouble finding bleach that lists the % or that doesn’t seem to have some thickening agent or color max. Does anyone have a link to Amazon or Lowes or somewhere so that I can see the bottle that you all are referring to?

Walmart's Pool Essentials is one example. HD sells pool chlorine (and muriatic acid), and in a pinch even regular (plain) laundry bleach will work. The major ingredient will be sodium hypochlorite.





That MA will work, but when it says "low fumes" it probably means it's not full strength (31.5%) and may only be about 14%. Check their pool section or HD if you want the full strength.

 

[mashanks1]

Welcome, and congratulations on the new pool -- it looks amazing.

Your pump schedule is probably way overkill, yes. You're likely using (and paying for) many times more electricity than necessary.

It's easy to figure out what speed to run the pump, and for how long. But first, how are you getting the spillway to work? Are you switching your valves into a Spillway configuration, or are you just leaving them in the Pool configuration and raising the pump speed?

Thank you for the reply - I assumed it was. May be i need to turn it off earlier in the night if we aren't going to be using the hot tub. The spillway works all the time when the pump is running the pool. 50%, 75%, or 100% all work on the spillway. Only time it doesn't run is when we have it in spa mode. I think the pool return is partial split to pool and spa so that the spill way runs.

 

[mashanks1]

Your local hardware store's pool section, Walmart, Amazon,, etc. Look for granular stabilizer (Cyanuric Acid) 99%-100% pure.


Walmart's Pool Essentials is one example. HD sells pool chlorine (and muriatic acid), and in a pinch even regular (plain) laundry bleach will work. The major ingredient will be sodium hypochlorite.


That MA will work, but when it says "low fumes" it probably means it's not full strength (31.5%) and may only be about 14%. Check their pool section or HD if you want the full strength.

I found this at Lowes for Liquid Chlorine: Bottle shows 10%

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Pool-Essentials-1-Gallon-Liquid-Pool-Chlorine/5001527059

For CYA - how about these:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Clorox-Pool-Spa-Clorox-Pool-Spa-Chlorine-Stabilizer/1001873978

https://www.amazon.com/Pool-Mate-1-2604B-Stabilizer-Conditioner/dp/B00J7L47HA/

Unfortunately I live where Lowes as founded, so Home Depot isn't allowed any where super close by ha.

I did find this at Leslie's Pool nearby

https://lesliespool.com/muriatic-acid-2-pack-of-1-gallon-bottles/14015.html

 

[DrewLG]

The spillway works all the time when the pump is running the pool. 50%, 75%, or 100% all work on the spillway. Only time it doesn't run is when we have it in spa mode. I think the pool return is partial split to pool and spa so that the spill way runs.

Great. Ok, the main thing to know about the pump is that it uses dramatically less electricity at slower speeds. Running for 1 hour at 2000 RPM uses WAY more electricity than running for 2 hours at 1000 RPM, even though the same amount of water flows through the pump in both cases. So for efficiency and cost saving, you should prefer to run the pump at low speed for a long time, rather than at high speed for a short time.

Here are the reasons for running the pump. By looking over this list, you should be able to come up with a schedule that lets you run the pump at the lowest speed (or set of speeds) that fulfills all your needs:

1. Skim the surface of the water.
   Speed and duration: The pump only has to be running fast enough for water to be drawn over the top of the weir door (the "flapper") in the skimmer; if you see leaves or pollen being drawn into the skimmer -- even slowly -- the pump is running fast enough. And it has to run long enough to keep the water's surface clear (the actual time is probably dependent on the season). At low speeds around 1200 RPM, the pump will probably draw only around 100 watts, so some people here run their pumps 24/7 at that speed to skim continuously, and it costs them less than a dollar a day.
2. Produce chlorine, if you have a SWG or other chlorinator that requires water flow.
   Speed and duration: Your SWG will require a certain minimum flow rate to produce any chlorine, but above that threshold the flow does not affect the amount of chlorine produced -- there's a control on the SWG to adjust production between 0% and 100%. So you only need enough speed to activate the SWG, and then you can adjust pump duration and SWG percentage to produce enough FC to counter the FC that's lost to UV exposure and bather waste (this will change as the seasons change).
3. Distribute chemicals through the pool and into the spa.
   This is the main reason for the pool-to-spa bypass (the partial split between pool and spa when the system is in Pool mode) -- it guarantees that the spa water won't stagnate and lose its FC, since the spa gets some freshly chlorinated water whenever the pool is running. Speed: Any speed that's enough to skim the pool should be enough to push water into the spa; you only need water to trickle over the spillway, not pour out in a pleasing arc.
4. Run the spillway.
   I like the look and sound of this, too. But you've been getting the effect by running the pump fast enough to push a lot of water through the bypass. That's not necessary. In addition to the Pool and Spa modes, which circulate water within the pool (with a little bit bypassed to the spa) and within the spa, your system also has a Spillway mode, which pulls water from the pool and returns it to the spa.
   Speed and duration: In the Spillway mode, a relatively low pump speed will be enough to produce a pleasing effect -- you'll have to experiment to find the speed you like. And you can run it as long as you like -- even all day instead of the regular Pool mode, since the water will still be getting drawn through the skimmer, through the SWG, and into both the spa and the pool.
5. Run a pressure- or suction-side cleaner.
   Running a water-powered automatic cleaner requires more flow than just skimming. Pressure-side cleaners require both extra flow from the main pump and additional pressure from a booster pump. If you have a water-powered cleaner, then your system is probably already configured to override the pump speed whenever the cleaner is active.
   Speed and duration: Main pumps are often set to run much faster than necessary for cleaners; you may want to read the cleaner manual or experiment to find the lowest speed that performs well. It should run long enough to fully clean the bottom of the pool; you'll have to experiment.
6. Feed the heater.
   When the heater is on, it requires a certain flow rate -- probably around 50 gallons per minute. It won't even turn on if the flow rate is too low, and if the flow is too high the heater's lifetime may be shortened by condensation. Your system is probably already configured to override any other speed settings and run the pump at ~50 GPM whenever the heater is on.
7. Run the spa jets.
   If you don't have a separate pump for spa jets, the jet action will be produced by running your main pump at a relatively high speed. It's best if the right speed for the jets is also the right speed for the heater, since you'll probably want both to be operating simultaneously.

Two notes:

1. Your brand-new pool's warranty may require you to run the pump 24/7 at a relatively high speed for a while. If so, ignore all of the above for now. Set the pump speed and schedule as detailed above once your warranty allows you to.
2. If you follow the TFP method, there is absolutely no need to get any particular number of "turnovers" (pool volumes) through your filter every day. That concept is related to the idea that your filter is responsible for collecting algae, but the TFP method prevents algae from growing in the first place. So don't be concerned if your schedule only pumps a fraction of your pool volume through the filter every day. So long as the pump is running long enough and fast enough to keep the water surface skimmed, the pool floor cleaned, the water chlorinated, and all your water features doing their thing, you're good.

 

[Newdude]

I found this at Lowes for Liquid Chlorine: Bottle shows 10%

That's the stuff. They sell the exact kind at Walmart for $5.50 but that probably won't last long with the other 2 considerably more expensive. Home Depot has HDX chlorinating liquid for about $10 most places.

All 3 have a pool section in the outside garden supply area and that's where they keep it. Also try to get bottles that are 3 months old or less.

Chlorine Date Code Decoder - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[mashanks1]

@DrewLG & @Newdude i appreciate the help.

What is the best way for ongoing support? Keep it within this thread or start a new one with new issues?

 

[Texas Splash]

What is the best way for ongoing support? Keep it within this thread or start a new one with new issues?

You can continue the discussion here for now. If things get wonky, we can always split parts off later as needed.

 

[mashanks1]

When doing my testing, I have been doing the testing in my kitchen. Is this an issue instead of doing outside with the sun?

If I run the water the water and dump the tests down the drain, would this hurt my septic?

 

[DrewLG]

When doing my testing, I have been doing the testing in my kitchen. Is this an issue instead of doing outside with the sun?

No, although the CYA test might be more accurate outdoors. But I personally haven't noticed a difference between CYA outside and CYA inside near a window.

If I run the water the water and dump the tests down the drain, would this hurt my septic?

No, it's perfectly safe to pour the used chemicals down the drain with the water running.

 

[mashanks1]

Great thank you. I went and picked up CYA, Chlorine, more MA, salt, and some CHA increaser.

And I have to say that SpeedStir makes love much easier ha.

Just got my salt test, so going to run it and start putting everything in the pool - after I see my Purdue Boilers pick up a win here!

I was also able to request a refund on Amazon for my ColorQ, they accepted it even though I have used it twice.

 

[DrewLG]

I went and picked up CYA, Chlorine, more MA, salt, and some CHA increaser.

Remember that salt and calcium chloride (and CYA, for all practical purposes) don't degrade, dissipate, or evaporate. Once they're in the water, they stay there forever.

So since you're not in a hurry, add those chemicals gradually. Maybe add only half of the amount that PoolMath says you need. Then test 24 hours later (or 48 hours later for CYA -- it seems to rise more slowly) and confirm that you got the expected change in chemical concentration before adding the remaining half.

I was also able to request a refund on Amazon for my ColorQ, they accepted it even though I have used it twice.

That's great news.

 

[mashanks1]

Good call, I did plan on slowly adding them into the pool.

Using my FAS-DPD kit I had FC as 2.5 but the color never changed when doing CC, so I assume that means it is 0? And PoolMath says recommended 1-3 for FC, but you mentioned 4-5ppm. Which should I follow?

Right now temps are fluctuating around 57* to 62* - I shouldn’t have any issues with adding salt now right? I don’t plan on turning on the SWG until temps are above 65*.

 

[Texas Splash]

the color never changed when doing CC, so I assume that means it is 0?

Correct

PoolMath says recommended 1-3 for FC, but you mentioned 4-5ppm. Which should I follow?

First be sure to record your current CYA. Then go to the FC/CYA Levels to find your ideal corresponding FC level based on your current CYA, pool type, and method of chlorination.

If you have any other questions let us know.

 

[mknauss]

nd PoolMath says recommended 1-3 for FC, but you mentioned 4-5ppm. Which should I follow?

The FC suggested by Poolmath is based on CYA. If you have added CYA, use your Goal level as your test result in Poolmath until the CYA is fully distributed.

 

[mashanks1]

The FC suggested by Poolmath is based on CYA. If you have added CYA, use your Goal level as your test result in Poolmath until the CYA is fully distributed.

My current CYA wasn’t registering with the Taylor kit, so I assume 0-20ish. With CYA at 0, PoolMath suggest adding 14oz of 10% bleach. To bring it FC from 2.5 to 3ppm.

Edit- okay that makes sense. I’m adding CYA and Chlorine now. But having added either at the moment so was assuming CYA as 0

 

[mknauss]

As you are adding CYA, then assume it is in the water for determination of your FC levels. Test for it a couple days after it is fully dissolved.