Ongoing Owner Build Pool: Advice Needed

[RocketManTex]

We have an ongoing owner build in Fort Worth, TX and could use some advice. We finished the steel before the current ice storm and are about to start plumbing.

Here's one of the renderings showing an overall view of the project:



The equipment pad is going to be along the side of the house near the shallow end in the above rendering. It's about 25' from the pad to the nearest corner and then another 15' or so to the nearest spa corner. The patio with a solid cover is existing and is 10'x14', while the pergola is notional at this point. The rest of the yard was grass before excavation started and we're going to end up with grass only along the deep end and between our house and the neighbors to each side (we're in a suburban residential area).

Here are some pool and plumbing details:

• Rectangular in-ground pool with attached spa
  • 13' to 16' wide by 40' long pool: 580 sq ft surface area, 110' perimeter
  • 7x7 spa: 49 sq ft surface area, 28' perimeter
  • About 22000 gal of water
• Plumbing details
  • Pumps: 3 Pentair Intelliflo3 VSF (011075)
    • Main pool/spa pump
    • Spa booster pump
    • Water feature pump for 2 LED bubblers and 1 sheer descent (3' wide)
  • Filter: Pentair Clean and Clear Plus 420 (160301)
  • Heater: Pentair Mastertemp 400k Natural Gas (460736)
  • Chlorine: Pentair Intellichlor IC40 SWCG (came with intellicenter 521903)
  • Pool stuff:
    • 1 skimmer (yes, we should have 2, but we're not)
    • 1 main drain
    • 1 sidewall drain (for water feature pump)
    • 1 suction cleaner line? (we plan to use a robot, but this would be a backup option)
    • 4 Pool returns (we could add 1 more along the long continuous side)
    • Autofill with overflow included
  • Spa stuff:
    • 1 spa main drain
    • 1 spa sidewall drain (for spa booster pump)
    • The exact # of fittings and type are TBD
    • With the main pump in spa mode + the booster pump, we should be able to deliver over 200+ GPM in total
    • 2 air blowers (1 for each pump): Air Supply Silencer 1.5 HP (6315241)

Hopefully that's enough background info to get started, but I'm happy to provide more as needed.

What I'm really wondering about is the plumbing, because that's what's coming right up. I should add that, even though I've never done this type of work before, I'm hoping to do as much of it as I can myself. Partly to save money (maybe?) and partly out of interest and the hope that I'll know how all this pool stuff works when I'm done (for fixing it later).

Here's a schematic I've started (it doesn't show the spa booster pump or water feature pump details yet, but we can still talk about them):


Feel free to provide advice on anything, but here's where I have specific questions:

• Is 2" PVC from the skimmer and main drain adequate?
  • I plan to run individual lines for each, with maybe 2/3 of flow from skimmer and 1/3 from the main drain
  • I'm not an experienced pool owner, but I think I plan to run the pump 24/7, with a low RPM and then increase only as needed for specific things. It would only take 15 GPM to turn over the 22,000 gallon pool volume once per day.
• Is it OK to have 2" from the pool and 3" from the spa coming into the 3-way valve for the main pump?
  • I plan to use 3" PVC from the spa drain, so would I reduce to 2" before the 3-way valve?
  • What size pipe should I use going from the 3-way valve into the pump?
  • What I'm really worried about is hampering the benefit of the 3" coming from the spa by using less than 3" for the 3-way and into the pump. Is that a valid concern?
  • I have a similar concern related to the 3-way valve right before the returns, where I plan to use 3" PVC for the spa returns/jets.
• On the pool returns, I've read a lot about the benefits of individual lines (home runs), so I'm willing to do that, but I'm not 100% decided.
  • If they're individual lines, what would that look like coming out of the 3-way valve after the SWG?
    • Would I come out at 2" and then convert to 1.5" for each individual line?
    • Or would I use 2" all the way to the return fitting and wait to reduce down to the fitting size there?
  • If we loop the returns, what does that look like?
    • Do I just tee off going into the pool and then create a loop of 2" (?) pipe around the pool and then tee off and reduce size at each return location?
    • Other than isolating leaks in the future, has anyone had issues with looped returns (and what are they)?
• Heater bypass
  • I'm planning to have an automated 3-way valve to bypass the heater.
  • In Texas it's warm enough that I think there will be long periods of time where we don't use the heater, so it seems like a good idea to be able to completely bypass it.
  • I have it automated, so if we want to heat the spa we can switch to that automatically.
  • Thoughts on this?
• Bypass between the pump and filter
  • I'm also planning to have a (manual) 3-way valve to bypass between the pump and filter.
  • My rationale for this bypass is less clear, but one reason would be to drain/lower the pool for whatever reason and have a way to attach that to a hose out to the street to avoid flooding the yard between us and our neighbor.
  • Thoughts on this?
• For the water features, this is as far as I've gotten with my planning:
  • 2 LED bubblers: run individual 2" lines to each, with a 2-way valve to adjust flow
  • 1 sheer descent (3' wide): individual line (2", 2.5" or 3"?) with a 2-way valve to adjust flow
    • Should we consider more sheers/coverage than the single 3'?
  • Automated 3-way valve to adjust flow between the 2 features
• In general, I'm the least certain what I want to do in the spa, so advice here is much appreciated
  • We're planning to do a rolled edge
  • Seat configuration?
    • There are no seats on the spillway side
    • Would you plan for 2 seats along each of the other 3 sides, so 6 seats for a 7'x7' spa?
    • I'm 6' and my wife is 5', so I already want to do a split bench height
  • Jets
    • I'm thinking about using this jet array product for at least 1 seat (mine): Jet Array - CMP
    • Any other recommendations on jet fixtures or spa details?
• Dry-fitting PVC
  • I've heard that you should dry-fit everything first, but I imagine it's tough to get the PVC to separate afterwards
  • Is there any trick to getting the parts to separate?

Thanks for any help!

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

This equipment is for a 20’ x 40’ pool with a 10’ x 12’ spa with 15 Jets. Your equipment list is the same as this set up except for the filter. Swimming pool has four return lines.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Hydraulics is a very important part of the pool and spa, this is an example of what you will be taking on.

 

[HermanTX]

@RocketManTex Nice pool design. You have taken on a big project. Here is feedback to some of your questions.

1. Having a heater bypass is a good idea. Keep it.
2. Having a filter bypass is also a good idea for draining. Keep it.
3. Running individual lines to bubblers and sheers is best. For the 2-way valve, ensure it is a Jandy (or similar), diverter 2-way valve as those are repairable. Do not get the traditional red or blue handle 2-way ball valves.
4. If your sheers are on a separate pump, ensure you have a small filter after the pump but before the sheers. Some sheers have small openings and you do not want to have debris block it. Your basket in the pump may not be enough to prevent small debris so there are small fitlers to use.
5. Split height seats in the spa is a good idea. Keep it.
6. You do not mention lights, but consider those when doing plumbing so they are positioned correctly. Have lights shine away from seating areas. So they are normally on the wall nearest the patio/home.
7. I don't think there is any advantage of individual run returns vs a loop system other than if there is a leak you could isolate one. Assuming you have 2-way diverter valve at the pad for each line
8. 2 inch PVC throughout the pad plumbing is adequate even with 3 inch line coming in from spa. Most every pump, filter, heater all have fittings to accept 2 inch or 2.5 inch.
9. Dry fitting on the pad is important to ensure your configuration is level and match correctly. Twisting the pipes helps to release the friction to separate them. Also, good practice to mark each pipe once you glue it to identify it has been glued. While you also can see the primer, it helps to have a secondary method to know the joint is glued.
10. Your plumbing diagram is better than what is supplied by most PBs. At least the ones I have dealt with, or the ones seen on this forum.

 

[mas985]

• Is 2" PVC from the skimmer and main drain adequate?
  • I plan to run individual lines for each, with maybe 2/3 of flow from skimmer and 1/3 from the main drain
  • I'm not an experienced pool owner, but I think I plan to run the pump 24/7, with a low RPM and then increase only as needed for specific things. It would only take 15 GPM to turn over the 22,000 gallon pool volume once per day.

As long as you don't exceed 84 GPM (8 ft/sec) in any 2" pipe. Also, in the main drain cross pipes, the flow rate should not exceed 63 GPM (6 ft/sec) when one drain is blocked.

• Is it OK to have 2" from the pool and 3" from the spa coming into the 3-way valve for the main pump?
  • I plan to use 3" PVC from the spa drain, so would I reduce to 2" before the 3-way valve?
  • What size pipe should I use going from the 3-way valve into the pump?
  • What I'm really worried about is hampering the benefit of the 3" coming from the spa by using less than 3" for the 3-way and into the pump. Is that a valid concern?
  • I have a similar concern related to the 3-way valve right before the returns, where I plan to use 3" PVC for the spa returns/jets.

Again, 2" pipe should not exceed 84 GPM (8 ft/sec) in any 2" pipe. If this is referring to the high flow spa jets, then all plumbing should be 3". If this is just for the circulation, heating, filtering, then you really don't need 3". It is unclear from your drawings.

• On the pool returns, I've read a lot about the benefits of individual lines (home runs), so I'm willing to do that, but I'm not 100% decided.
  • If they're individual lines, what would that look like coming out of the 3-way valve after the SWG?
    • Would I come out at 2" and then convert to 1.5" for each individual line?
    • Or would I use 2" all the way to the return fitting and wait to reduce down to the fitting size there?
  • If we loop the returns, what does that look like?
    • Do I just tee off going into the pool and then create a loop of 2" (?) pipe around the pool and then tee off and reduce size at each return location?
    • Other than isolating leaks in the future, has anyone had issues with looped returns (and what are they)?

Loops are not worth the effort. I wrote a piece on that here:

Analysis of Plumbing Loops and Other Configurations

I, like most people, have long believed that plumbing loops can help balance return flow through multiple returns in a pool or spa but I was curious as to how much they really help and if there are other ways to balance return flow. So I performed a detailed analysis on 6 different plumbing...

www.troublefreepool.com

Home runs are ok but one for each return is kind of over kill. One pipe for every 2 returns is reasonable.

• Heater bypass
  • I'm planning to have an automated 3-way valve to bypass the heater.
  • In Texas it's warm enough that I think there will be long periods of time where we don't use the heater, so it seems like a good idea to be able to completely bypass it.
  • I have it automated, so if we want to heat the spa we can switch to that automatically.
  • Thoughts on this?

Always a good idea.

• Bypass between the pump and filter
  • I'm also planning to have a (manual) 3-way valve to bypass between the pump and filter.
  • My rationale for this bypass is less clear, but one reason would be to drain/lower the pool for whatever reason and have a way to attach that to a hose out to the street to avoid flooding the yard between us and our neighbor.
  • Thoughts on this?

Only if you plan on using that pump for high flow rate applications. But that is usually better served by a separate pump.

For draining, you don't need a bypass, just a port and valve before the filter. Also, draining the pool with the main pump is usually a bad idea. Most pool pumps will lose prime well before the pool is empty.

• For the water features, this is as far as I've gotten with my planning:
  • 2 LED bubblers: run individual 2" lines to each, with a 2-way valve to adjust flow
  • 1 sheer descent (3' wide): individual line (2", 2.5" or 3"?) with a 2-way valve to adjust flow
    • Should we consider more sheers/coverage than the single 3'?
  • Automated 3-way valve to adjust flow between the 2 features

How much flow does each bubbler require. Usually they are pretty low so 2" might be overkill.

• In general, I'm the least certain what I want to do in the spa, so advice here is much appreciated
  • We're planning to do a rolled edge
  • Seat configuration?
    • There are no seats on the spillway side
    • Would you plan for 2 seats along each of the other 3 sides, so 6 seats for a 7'x7' spa?
    • I'm 6' and my wife is 5', so I already want to do a split bench height
  • Jets
    • I'm thinking about using this jet array product for at least 1 seat (mine): Jet Array - CMP
    • Any other recommendations on jet fixtures or spa details?

Are all the spa jets run off of the jet pump? They should be and the main pump running through the filter and heater should be relegated to lower flow rates which is why 3" suction for that application is a bit overkill but doesn't hurt either.

 

[RocketManTex]

Hydraulics is a very important part of the pool and spa, this is an example of what you will be taking on.

Thanks for the pics. That last picture of your spa is a bit intimidating, but I'm ok with a challenging and complicated project. Honestly, the appeal of a finished, working pool has turned out to be only part of the lure at this point. The learning and doing side of this project still has some shine to it. Perhaps that will fade quickly! The thing I'm realizing is the most against me is time, since we've already had the excavation sitting for over a month and had some fairly significant cave-ins along the sides from the freeze/thaw over the holidays. If I had the luxury of endless time, I'm confident I could do this and get it right. However, with the goal of getting to a stable point in the project, I'm looking into what it would cost to have enough of the plumbing done to allow us to proceed to gunite.

 

[pjt]

1 skimmer (yes, we should have 2, but we're not)

Can you share why you're committed to only one skimmer?

Have you considered a single three-way diverter downstream of your skimmer and main drain lines instead of 2 two-way valves?

 

[RocketManTex]

@RocketManTex Nice pool design. You have taken on a big project. Here is feedback to some of your questions.

1. Having a heater bypass is a good idea. Keep it.
2. Having a filter bypass is also a good idea for draining. Keep it.
3. Running individual lines to bubblers and sheers is best. For the 2-way valve, ensure it is a Jandy (or similar), diverter 2-way valve as those are repairable. Do not get the traditional red or blue handle 2-way ball valves.
4. If your sheers are on a separate pump, ensure you have a small filter after the pump but before the sheers. Some sheers have small openings and you do not want to have debris block it. Your basket in the pump may not be enough to prevent small debris so there are small fitlers to use.
5. Split height seats in the spa is a good idea. Keep it.
6. You do not mention lights, but consider those when doing plumbing so they are positioned correctly. Have lights shine away from seating areas. So they are normally on the wall nearest the patio/home.
7. I don't think there is any advantage of individual run returns vs a loop system other than if there is a leak you could isolate one. Assuming you have 2-way diverter valve at the pad for each line
8. 2 inch PVC throughout the pad plumbing is adequate even with 3 inch line coming in from spa. Most every pump, filter, heater all have fittings to accept 2 inch or 2.5 inch.
9. Dry fitting on the pad is important to ensure your configuration is level and match correctly. Twisting the pipes helps to release the friction to separate them. Also, good practice to mark each pipe once you glue it to identify it has been glued. While you also can see the primer, it helps to have a secondary method to know the joint is glued.
10. Your plumbing diagram is better than what is supplied by most PBs. At least the ones I have dealt with, or the ones seen on this forum.

Thank you very much for the feedback!

1. I will keep the heater bypass. I'm still curious if others (particularly those in warm states) see the advantage of having this be automated.
2. I will keep the filter bypass. I've seen people recommend connecting the bypass line to a hose bib, so unless I hear otherwise that's my plan.
3. I've noted the recommendation on the Jandy 2-way valves (I remember seeing that in other threads as well).
4. Sheers and bubblers are on a separate pump. I had not considered a separate filter for it, so I appreciate the input and will probably incorporate that.
5. I will keep the split heights.
6. I should have mentioned lights. I will have 4 Microbrites for the pool and one for the spa, all facing away from the house.
   • New question: What is the recommended water depth for lights?
     
     • 1 in the splash pad (9" water depth).
     • 1 between the stairs and spa.
     • 1 under the spillway.
     • 1 in the deep end, where there is a bench, so I assume it'll be below that?
7. I'm worried about leaks. Because of the tight space between the pool and existing patio and along the rear fence line, I'm planning to have all of the pipes run inside the pool/spa walls. As such, I think I'm going to default to individual returns. I do plan to have diverter valves if they're separate, so I'll add that to the schematic.
8. Regarding the 2", I'll discuss that in my response to @mas985, since what he's saying implies I may need 3" into the pump.
9. Thanks for the suggestion on marking glued pipes. I can see that being a real issue!
10. Thanks. I copied stuff I've seen on here.

 

[HermanTX]

I will keep the heater bypass. I'm still curious if others (particularly those in warm states) see the advantage of having this be automated.

While that is feasible you need to ask how often you need to rotate it. Having the heater bypassed would be for draining the or servicing the heater. In the winter you may wish to have it completely bypassed unless you use your spa a lot during the winter. Just ensure whichever automation system, that you have sufficient relays to control multiple valves.

I will keep the filter bypass. I've seen people recommend connecting the bypass line to a hose bib, so unless I hear otherwise that's my plan.

The hose bib on the end of the pipe is convenient to attach a hose and push water away from the pad or other sensitive areas. As a reminder, if you plan to drain your pool completely then it is best to use a sump pump. If you have to drain 4 inches due to heavy rains then the use of the main pump is convenient. Having a drain bypass is also very helpful if you have to vacuum and you want to go to waste. Some people with heavy algae elect to use a manual vacuum connected to skimmer line and push the algae to waste rather than through the filter. So there are many different scenarios to have a bypass prior to the filter.

Draining brings up another subject. Have you considered putting in an overflow line. This would be put right above tile level, so any heavy rains will drain to a designated line. you would need to also lay a full drain line to some point as well.

 

[ajw22]

Heater bypass…

Unless you need a manual bypass due to high water flow you should use the automatic bypass feature standard on the latest MasterTemp model you will be getting. This does not require the valve to be connected to your automation system.

See pages 14-15 of the MasterTemp Installation Manual…

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Picture of a over flow line prior to tile being installed.

 

[ajw22]

It is not clear to me that you understand the complexity and requirements of the spa plumbing.

Specifically…

• Where and when a Hartford Loop is needed
• Proper plumbing of the air and water loops around the spa for mixing at the spa jets
• How water and air are mixed at the jet nozzles for proper operation
• Jet flow requirements for adequate massage pressure

If you don’t get it correct the problems will be buried under gunite, plaster, and tile that will require extensive rework to fix.

Many Pool Builders don’t get it right and we see it when folks arrive here asking why their spa jets do not work properly.

 

[RocketManTex]

@mas985: First, thanks for the help (I've read a lot of your stuff, so I know you know what you are talking about).

• Regarding my intent to use 2" for the skimmer and main drain:
  • It seems reasonable to me that I would never have to exceed 84 GPM, however, I don't have experience with this.
  • My simple math shows I can filter all the water in the pool (22,000 gal) in 24 hours using only 15 GPM (15*60*24=21600). At 84 GPM that would be about 5.5 times the entire pool volume in 24 hours, which seems like overkill.
  • So what would drive me to need higher than, say, 60 GPM? We don't have any trees (or much landscaping) in the back yard and neither do our neighbors, so skimming should be limited.
  • If I use a suction side cleaner (I need to add that line to my schematic), do those require over 84 GPM?
  • So if it seems reasonable to run my circulation pump pretty much 24/7 at a low RPM and flow rate (less than 30 GPM) in normal operation, then I'm happy with 2" for the skimmer and main drain and limiting flow to 84 GPM.
• Regarding separate return lines being overkill, I'm not sure I agree:
  • It's not for efficiency or to have even pressure at each return; it's mostly for future leak isolation.
  • So my question is, given 4 individual returns, is 1.5" adequate after the 3-way coming off the SWCG?
  • If I'm limited to 84 GPM on suction from the skimmer and main, it seems like 4 returns using 1.5" lines delivering up to 21 GPM is plenty since they are shown to top out around 50 GPM.
• Regarding the bubblers:
  • I checked and they don't use more than 50 GPM.
  • Also, they are set up for 1.5" PVC, so I'll use that.
• Regarding the filter bypass:
  • Maybe it's not a bypass like I have for the heater, where it's a way around the heater. I'm not trying to actually flow around the filter.
  • Here I guess it is more like a way to divert the water coming from the pump to a hose or drain for the purpose of lowering or draining the pool.
  • Your comments do have me 2nd-guessing the need for this.
    • In the case of a very heavy rain, have people had issues with their overflow being overcome by the rain volume? What's the worst case if that happens? Water flows over the edge of the pool and maybe the chemistry gets messed up after? Maybe the neighbor wonders why there's a lake in their yard? After such a rain, would they notice?
    • If I want to drain the whole pool, I already own a submersible pump (or could rent a bigger one). The comment about losing prime before the pool empties has me thinking I would need to use the submersible at some point anyway.

Before I respond about the rest, I should try to clarify what my initial thinking is relative to the spa, because that's what will drive the requirement for high flow rate:

1. It's a 7'x7' square spa, where we plan to leave the spillway side open (no seats)
2. This leaves room for maybe 6 seats with jets of some kind (2 along each of the other 3 walls)
   • Spa therapy station #1 (mine): in the deep bench, with a lot of jets (whatever that means)
   • Spa therapy station #2 (hers): in the shallow bench opposite #1, also with kind of a lot of jets
   • The remaining 4 seats get what they get (and don't throw a fit)
3. Two pumps servicing the spa, both of which are 3 HP VSFs
   • Main pump in spa mode
   • Separate spa booster pump
4. 3" pipe everywhere, suction and return?

So that's where things start to get pretty fuzzy, because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm not really sure what I want (I've never owned a spa). Fun right?!

Putting some numbers to it, let's use the installation guide for ParaJets Massaging Therapy Jets (as an example option), which has this table:


Looking at the table, I was thinking 3" for suction to allow up to 138 GPM. 3" is somewhat arbitrary, but seems like a good upper bound - only crazy people use more than 3" right!? If I use 2.5" for the returns, that limits it to 119 GPM, so I just figured I would use 3" everywhere and let suction be the limiting factor. Looking back at my schematic, I show 3" coming from the spa main drain into the 3-way valve leading into the main pump. I will also have a separate sidewall drain in the spa for the 2nd pump, which I was intending to have 3" for both suction and return. As @mas985 said, since the main pump is connected to other stuff, it makes sense not to expect as much flow at the spa from it as the 2nd pump. Here's where I'll try to get back to responding to @mas985:

• Regarding the 3-way valve leading into main pump, my initial question was related to the 3" spa line and what size line to have coming out of the 3-way valve into the main pump. It's a short run from there into the pump, however, I do hope to exceed 84 GPM when in spa mode. Ignoring capability and efficiency, does the 6 fps requirement apply to this short section of pipe? If so, then I guess the simple answer is that I need 3" coming from the 3-way valve. However, my gut tells me the pump opening is smaller than 3", so it's going to neck down anyway just inside the pump. Is this worth worrying about? If I follow the 5X diameter rule and use 3" pipe it's just a matter of running 15" of 3" from the valve to the pump. It's no big deal, except I'm just trying to understand the system and what is "normal" or "recommended".

New questions:

• What is a reasonable flow rate to expect from each pump servicing the spa, assuming I use 3" for suction from each of the 2 drains in the spa and 3" for spa returns from each pump?
  • Is 120 GPM from the main pump asking too much considering the other equipment it's attached to?
  • Is 138 GPM from the booster pump (from that table for 3" suction) something I can count on?
• Another new related line of questions relates to how the spa runs are looped and then reduced at each jet:
  • First, do people always "loop" their spa returns or are individual lines from the equipment pad sometimes used?
  • Assuming a "looped" spa, is it as simple as running 3" (in my case for now) from the pad, teeing off at some point at the spa and then creating a loop from which to tee off and reduce down for a given jet fitting? If not, then what is meant by "looped"?

 

[ajw22]

There is no requirement for any amount of turnover in a pool. Drop turnover from any of your flow considerations…

Turnover of Pool Water - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

However, my gut tells me the pump opening is smaller than 3", so it's going to neck down anyway just inside the pump. Is this worth worrying about?

No, changes in pipe size for short runs have no impact.

Your gut need to review Bernoulli’s Principle…

Bernoulli's principle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[RocketManTex]

It is not clear to me that you understand the complexity and requirements of the spa plumbing.

Specifically…

• Where and when a Hartford Loop is needed
• Proper plumbing of the air and water loops around the spa for mixing at the spa jets
• How water and air are mixed at the jet nozzles for proper operation
• Jet flow requirements for adequate massage pressure

If you don’t get it correct the problems will be buried under gunite, plaster, and tile that will require extensive rework to fix.

Many Pool Builders don’t get it right and we see it when folks arrive here asking why their spa jets do not work properly.

You are wise to question my knowledge, but I'm trying to tread carefully before stepping out alone. I've read a ton on this forum, so I'm kind of an expert now (just kidding). However, I'm hopeful that something like the attached installation manual is an adequate guide on it's own. It talks about pretty much every item on your list. That doesn't mean I know how to apply that info in practice, but I'm hopeful. It seems that the manuals for each piece of equipment are pretty specific, so I'm relying on the manufacturers to provide a basis in their installation guides. Between those manuals, this TFP forum and videos online, I'm optimistic I'll be successful.

 

[ajw22]

You are wise to question my knowledge, but I'm trying to tread carefully before stepping out alone. I've read a ton on this forum, so I'm kind of an expert now (just kidding). However, I'm hopeful that something like the attached installation manual is an adequate guide on it's own. It talks about pretty much every item on your list. That doesn't mean I know how to apply that info in practice, but I'm hopeful. It seems that the manuals for each piece of equipment are pretty specific, so I'm relying on the manufacturers to provide a basis in their installation guides. Between those manuals, this TFP forum and videos online, I'm optimistic I'll be successful.

Well your questions do not reflect what the manual is saying to do. Like this…



It seems that you are looking for ways to deviate from recommended and accepted practices. Even the so called pros mess it up when they begin freelancing.

Example…

Another new related line of questions relates to how the spa runs are looped and then reduced at each jet:

• First, do people always "loop" their spa returns or are individual lines from the equipment pad sometimes used?

Manufacturers recommend to loop the spa. Are you asking if some folks don’t follow what is in the manual? Why?

Also manuals often gloss over key steps that they assume a professional plumber always knows.

Your postings reference your gut instead of the manuals you are looking to follow.

 

[RocketManTex]

Can you share why you're committed to only one skimmer?

Have you considered a single three-way diverter downstream of your skimmer and main drain lines instead of 2 two-way valves?

• Regarding only 1 skimmer:
  • It was a space issue in our yard/layout.
  • I was told I need 3' of deck space behind the waterline for a skimmer.
  • I have that in the deep end, so the skimmer is there.
  • I don't have that in the shallow end adjacent to the existing patio or anywhere along the rear fence (both are 30"). The pool is 13' wide in the shallow end. It was hard to know how that extra foot would feel, but I could have gone with 12' wide and then had 3' on both sides.
  • I considered adding a skimmer in the shallow splash pad, but the bump out would have been within the 5' side yard setback. I actually have a city approved variance for the 5' rear yard setback, but didn't ask for one in the side yard.
• Regarding the single 3-way diverter:
  • I hadn't considered that option, so I should. Do you have an example photo or schematic of what that looks like?
  • I need to add a line for a suction cleaner (assuming I need a separate line for that), because my schematic doesn't show it.
  • That would be plumbed in with the rest of the suction from the pool, right? So would the single 3-way diverter still work? What I'm trying to achieve is a way to adjust how much flows from the skimmer vs the main drain.
  • If you have an example of how that might work plus the separate suction line, that would be great. Or maybe educate me on suction cleaners? Maybe they don't require their own line?

 

[mas985]

Regarding my intent to use 2" for the skimmer and main drain:

• It seems reasonable to me that I would never have to exceed 84 GPM, however, I don't have experience with this.
• My simple math shows I can filter all the water in the pool (22,000 gal) in 24 hours using only 15 GPM (15*60*24=21600). At 84 GPM that would be about 5.5 times the entire pool volume in 24 hours, which seems like overkill.
• So what would drive me to need higher than, say, 60 GPM? We don't have any trees (or much landscaping) in the back yard and neither do our neighbors, so skimming should be limited.
• If I use a suction side cleaner (I need to add that line to my schematic), do those require over 84 GPM?
• So if it seems reasonable to run my circulation pump pretty much 24/7 at a low RPM and flow rate (less than 30 GPM) in normal operation, then I'm happy with 2" for the skimmer and main drain and limiting flow to 84 GPM.

Allen covered this but there is no turnover requirement. However, you will find times where very high flow rates and skimmer action is desirable for clearing the pool surface quickly. For this reason, I would plan on at least 100 GPM. Also, Having larger suction lines helps to prevent clogs from debris. For these reasons, I would not use less than 2.5" plumbing for suction lines.

• Regarding separate return lines being overkill, I'm not sure I agree:
  • It's not for efficiency or to have even pressure at each return; it's mostly for future leak isolation.
  • So my question is, given 4 individual returns, is 1.5" adequate after the 3-way coming off the SWCG?
  • If I'm limited to 84 GPM on suction from the skimmer and main, it seems like 4 returns using 1.5" lines delivering up to 21 GPM is plenty since they are shown to top out around 50 GPM.

It is fine if you want to go that route. But keep in mind that shutting off a single line is not sufficient to prevent leakage. Both ends of the line have to be shut off. Also, I have owned my pool for more than 15 years and never has a pipe leak. It is pretty rare.

Putting some numbers to it, let's use the installation guide for ParaJets Massaging Therapy Jets (as an example option), which has this table:
View attachment 471962

Looking at the table, I was thinking 3" for suction to allow up to 138 GPM. 3" is somewhat arbitrary, but seems like a good upper bound - only crazy people use more than 3" right!? If I use 2.5" for the returns, that limits it to 119 GPM, so I just figured I would use 3" everywhere and let suction be the limiting factor. Looking back at my schematic, I show 3" coming from the spa main drain into the 3-way valve leading into the main pump. I will also have a separate sidewall drain in the spa for the 2nd pump, which I was intending to have 3" for both suction and return. As @mas985 said, since the main pump is connected to other stuff, it makes sense not to expect as much flow at the spa from it as the 2nd pump. Here's where I'll try to get back to responding to @mas985:

First, there is no fundamental LIMIT to flow rate in pipes. Those are simply recommendations, not limits. Also, you NEVER want the suction to be a limiting factor in flow rate. That can potentially cause pump cavitation.

But what is the main pump driving for the spa vs the booster pump. If the main pump is only for circulation and heating and the booster only for the jets, then you really don't need the 3" plumbing for the main pump from the spa. 2.5" is sufficient. Same for the MD from the pool. I would keep the jets on ONLY the booster pump. Never a good idea to use the main pump for jets.

• Regarding the 3-way valve leading into main pump, my initial question was related to the 3" spa line and what size line to have coming out of the 3-way valve into the main pump. It's a short run from there into the pump, however, I do hope to exceed 84 GPM when in spa mode. Ignoring capability and efficiency, does the 6 fps requirement apply to this short section of pipe? If so, then I guess the simple answer is that I need 3" coming from the 3-way valve. However, my gut tells me the pump opening is smaller than 3", so it's going to neck down anyway just inside the pump. Is this worth worrying about? If I follow the 5X diameter rule and use 3" pipe it's just a matter of running 15" of 3" from the valve to the pump. It's no big deal, except I'm just trying to understand the system and what is "normal" or "recommended".

As I suggested above, the jets should always be on their own pump, not the main pump. So the main pump does not need to support very high flow rates. The issue with smaller pipe on the pad is when the flow rate is high, it will be noisy and very inefficient.

New questions:

• What is a reasonable flow rate to expect from each pump servicing the spa, assuming I use 3" for suction from each of the 2 drains in the spa and 3" for spa returns from each pump?
  • Is 120 GPM from the main pump asking too much considering the other equipment it's attached to?
  • Is 138 GPM from the booster pump (from that table for 3" suction) something I can count on?

It depends on the pump and the specifics in the plumbing layout and the jets chosen. But in general, you should be able to find a pump to fit the application and size the plumbing appropriately. For the jets, the important thing is to FIRST pick the jet type and the number of jets. This will then determine the total flow rate needed and the pipe size required for that flow rate. You can then choose the pump based upon the head loss in the jet and plumbing.

• Another new related line of questions relates to how the spa runs are looped and then reduced at each jet:
  • First, do people always "loop" their spa returns or are individual lines from the equipment pad sometimes used?
  • Assuming a "looped" spa, is it as simple as running 3" (in my case for now) from the pad, teeing off at some point at the spa and then creating a loop from which to tee off and reduce down for a given jet fitting? If not, then what is meant by "looped"?

Again, looping doesn't buy you much as long as large pipe is used around the spa. But again, first this first. Which jets and how many? This will determine the best plumbing to use and pump.

 

[ajw22]

I need to add a line for a suction cleaner (assuming I need a separate line for that)

Between a suction cleaner, a pressure cleaner, or a robot cleaner the suction cleaner is the worst type of cleaner to choose. It is antiquated technology and just clogs your filter more rapidly with debris.

There are pros and cons to pressure cleaners versus robots but both are superior to a suction cleaner.