This was well said and was the point I tried to make earlier. I think the harmonics from the VSP are exacerbated by the very low phase voltage. Solve that and your LED flicker may be solved too.
Whole house power question
- Thread starter pgershon
- Start date
Update:
I installed replacement dimmers this evening in the room where I exercise and checked the voltage to the fixture at maximum output from the dimmer - 119V. The Insteon dimmers must reduce voltage, even at maximum brightness. I checked several fixtures connected to Insteon dimmers throughout the house and saw similar results.
Given that the flicker only occurs when the pump is on, perhaps the bulbs are more sensitive to noise from the pump when receiving 105V instead of 120V? On the other hand, I need to confirm tomorrow that the LED bulbs in the fixtures with new non-Insteon dimmers do not flicker as well. I will spend an hour or so in that room tomorrow morning so it should be a good test.
Of course, my goal remains - it would be great to find a way to filter out what seems to be electrical noise coming from my Intelliflo pump. Unfortunately, I do not have access to an occiliscope to get a better handle on the frequencies. I did order an EMI noise filter and a capacitor to test to see if they help, based on comments I read on boards cros the internet. Others seem to have reported the same issue (with Insteon transmission - not with LED flicker), and no one has posted a perfect solution.
I installed replacement dimmers this evening in the room where I exercise and checked the voltage to the fixture at maximum output from the dimmer - 119V. The Insteon dimmers must reduce voltage, even at maximum brightness. I checked several fixtures connected to Insteon dimmers throughout the house and saw similar results.
Given that the flicker only occurs when the pump is on, perhaps the bulbs are more sensitive to noise from the pump when receiving 105V instead of 120V? On the other hand, I need to confirm tomorrow that the LED bulbs in the fixtures with new non-Insteon dimmers do not flicker as well. I will spend an hour or so in that room tomorrow morning so it should be a good test.
Of course, my goal remains - it would be great to find a way to filter out what seems to be electrical noise coming from my Intelliflo pump. Unfortunately, I do not have access to an occiliscope to get a better handle on the frequencies. I did order an EMI noise filter and a capacitor to test to see if they help, based on comments I read on boards cros the internet. Others seem to have reported the same issue (with Insteon transmission - not with LED flicker), and no one has posted a perfect solution.
I have these on order and will try...
Amazon.com: uxcell AC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter : Industrial & Scientific
Amazon.com: uxcell AC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter : Industrial & Scientific
www.amazon.com
Orion7319
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- Jul 1, 2020
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- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
I’ve seen that. Apparently when a 220v appliance switches on it can bridge the two legs. I have an old house that was built in the 60s. It has two main fuses for each leg and not a breaker. One of my fuses started going bad and everything attached to that half the service kept flickering. I couldn’t remove the fuses safely myself so I called an electrician to replace the fuse (photo will illustrate why). So this old timer comes out, yanks the live fuse out by hand (cause he was old, southern and completely insane) and half the service goes out. While he has the fuse out, one of the AC units tries to kick on. The lights on the leg with the pulled main fuse started to flash on and off. Yeah I do know I need to update my electrical service….
Orion7319
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- Jul 1, 2020
- 1,288
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- Vinyl
- Chlorine
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- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Some Led dimmers use pulse width modulation. They are technically “flickering”. Some flicker at frequencies that mess with a cameras shutter speed and you can see them flickering on video. I deal with this a lot more then I like. I can see how electrical noise could really mess with certain LEDs.
PWM LEDs: Pulse Width Modulation for Dimming Systems and Other Applications
PWM is ideally suited for applications needing to maintain specific characteristics of the LED, for example, efficiency, color, or temperature.
resources.pcb.cadence.com
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So I have a new theory on the VS pump noise if anyone wants. I have seen numerous explanations of causes for noise/interference which sometimes even trips the breaker but none of them add up IMO.
I believe it's from the control panel. They needed a 110v device to work on a 220v motor circuit with no neutral. They had to feed it a ground or it wouldn't work, so they used the pump ground instead of a neutral as the only option. When the electronics are active the 220V legs see a slight unbalance and sometimes it even trips the breaker. I think the randomness is a certain humidity range exasperating the problem. For me at the same RPM all year it came and went. Sometimes 3 times in a day and then not for 3 weeks.
Maybe its as simple as swapping the legs of the pump to put the noise on the other phase in the house.
I am trying to follow, as this issue has driven me batty. For me, the breaker never trips. I upgraded my breaker two years ago to the Siemans 20amp GFCI two years ago, hoping it might help, and it had no change. Are you suggesting that the pump's internal controller is 110V and it is causing an imbalance between the two leads of the pump? So if I swap the two leads at the breaker, it might help resolve issues on my end? I have no access to the 110v controller though. The RS485 connection between the controller and my Jandy box cant be the issue. FWIW, I did try disconnecting that connection and it had no effect, as it should not have (but was easy to try).
I have read reports of someone who claimed to have fixed a similar Insteon interference problem from a 208-230V-1 phase x 19.5A heat pump with a TDK-Lambda RSHN-2020 (EMI filter supposedly for 120-132 kHz). Unfortunately, this filter is not to be found these days.
Orion7319
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- Jul 1, 2020
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He’s saying either there or at the pump itself. He wants to see if that will put the noise on the other leg that the lights are not on. Easy enough to try.
That stops the phantom trips with a less sensitive breaker, not the noise itself.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I went over it with the electrician wiring up my pump and he didn't have a better explanation. The electronics on the pump are 110v but when VS pumps came out they would need to be swapped out on all the existing 220V motor circuits in the land that did not have a neutral. New installs would be easy enough to run a neutral just like they do for your stove and dryer to control those electronics. But that doesn't help the existing setups and many would pass on the swap if it required a nuetral. So they used the pump ground instead. If so, one leg of the 220v would see the very low draw of the electronics and one wouldn't. The noise fluctuates over the threshold that the factory estimated at times (humidity?) and trips the standard breaker. Using a less sensitive breaker stops the trip but not the noise.
I think your sensitive devices/bulbs are seeing that noise.
Swapping the legs at either the breaker or the pump connection would put the noise on the other phase of the house. You might be solving it in one room and creating it in another, but we can prove/disprove this one rather easily as the cause.
I don't think that that is possible.
The drive converts the 230 volts to DC and then regulates the DC output in a way that creates a simulated three phase AC output at whatever frequency is needed based on the RPM setting.
So, it is the way that the drive regulates the output that causes the noise.
- Jul 21, 2013
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Interesting theory except that all electronic devices work on low voltage - 6V, 9V, 12V or 24V typically.The first thing a device power supply does is convert line voltage - 240V or 120V - to the necessary voltage for the electronics in AC or DC.
You never feed high voltages directly to the semicondutor electronics in a control box.
There's no way that the motor manufacturer would use a ground as a neutral.
It's illegal, it would never pass a UL safety standard and it would trip any GFCI immediately.
It's illegal, it would never pass a UL safety standard and it would trip any GFCI immediately.
It certainly would be against code indoors. I'm wondering if being outdoors, with a very short run, protected by a secondary GFCI breaker mitigates the normal risks of doing so. (Or any combo of the 3)
Powering a regular device like a vacuum or radio sure would. But would a simple electronic that drew only a couple milliamps ? Possibly dancing that line and possibly needing a slightly less sensitive breaker ?
My electrician likely didn't have advanced degrees in EE. But he also didn't have a hard no answer, or a better explanation. He was however, well versed that it was 'a thing' and even claimed Pentair had since solved the riddle.
If you had a fountain that took 1,000 gallons per minute, it would be a smooth flow of water.
However, if you wanted to make pictures with the water, you could use many streams of water with each stream connected to a fast acting On/Off valve.
The valves would turn on and off based on the picture you wanted to make.
You are essentially converting an analog flow to a digital flow.
This would induce noise into the water flow and you would be able to feel the pulsing in the line going to the valves.
A variable speed pump drive does a similar thing when converting the analog 230 volt, single phase, 60 Hz power supply into a digital 3 phase output at a different frequency.
However, if you wanted to make pictures with the water, you could use many streams of water with each stream connected to a fast acting On/Off valve.
The valves would turn on and off based on the picture you wanted to make.
You are essentially converting an analog flow to a digital flow.
This would induce noise into the water flow and you would be able to feel the pulsing in the line going to the valves.
A variable speed pump drive does a similar thing when converting the analog 230 volt, single phase, 60 Hz power supply into a digital 3 phase output at a different frequency.
Would that fluctuation have random spikes in the noise when set at a constant RPM ? Or only fluctuate within it's parameters of the frequencies with no speed changes ? Originally, and I'm not still sure they do, they blamed it on speed changes affecting the noise, creating the pulses that you speak of. For everyone running varying schedules it would be nearly impossible to disprove. But one day looking out at the pool it hit me that my schedule was a constant yet it tripped sporadically during a period of a couple days then went away for weeks at a time. If the pump had a self prime function at set intervals, it would be at risk of happening every 24 hours after reset, not 3 times in an afternoon.
I've been rabbit hole-ing thoughts ever since.
Although I can do alot of the work, and can discuss alot of the why the work is done, I am far from a master in either.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,228
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Note that you are hijacking the OPs thread discussing his LED lights flickering to discuss your VSP spike issues.
Maybe you can have someone with Mod privileges give you your own thread.
Its not speed changes that affect my Insteon signal. I get the interface when pump runs constant at 2300, 2500, 2800 and 3300. Its easy to document. And the interference bothers certain zones and not others on my outside lights. I never realized that it could be polarity related. Its worth checking to see if switching polarity changes the affected zone. A good test, but I might have to put it back afterwards because the "fix" could create worse issues than the ones I have learned to live with now.
Actually teh VSP spike issues are the root of my problem. I have been sure of that for years. Its new that it affects the LED lights - used to just be my Insteon light signals. And in this case, not dimmers but my outside lights (and used to be sprinklers but I changed that system off Insteon because of these problems).
If you really want to see what the power signal looks like under different conditions, you should get an oscilloscope and see the actual waveform.
Other than actually using the right tools to check the power, we are just guessing and speculating.