New Construction Started - Willis, TX (north of Houston)

[JamesW]

Do it right the first time.

Don't be like this pool where you are trying to solve problems after the pool is built.

Waterfall doesn't get enough pressure to clear side of pool.

Hi there, My pool is a new construction and the pool builder is trying to get my waterfall to clear the coping on the side of the pool. The pump has been upgraded to a Jandy variable speed pump 1.65 (VS FLOPRO) and while it has much more pressure, it still isn't clearing completely. The pool...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JamesW]

For the infinity edge, you have the plumbing at about 5 feet of head loss.

Then you have about 5 feet to account for the height of the pool water surface above the trough surface plus miscellaneous losses (Check valves etc.) at 5 feet.

So, maybe about 15 feet of head loss for the infinity edge.

You could probably get close to about 200 GPM at about 3,110 RPM.

http://www.backyardpoolsuperstore.com/assets/images/PDFs/SpecSheets/JandyNeverLubeValveSpecSheet.pdf

 

[Duffatola]

This shows (3) 24" sheers.

View attachment 420800

Yes this is an older version. It depicts my first design that has an in-pool table. I removed the table, moved the sun shelf to that area, up-sized the sheers to 36" and extended the pool by 3'

 

[JamesW]

The maximum rated flow for the drains is 196 GPM.

You can put the main filtration pump and the water feature pump on the same main drain and then just keep the line to the filtration pump closed most of the time and only use it if necessary like draining the pool.

I would put a check valve between the filter pump and the filter and a check valve between the water feature pump and the water feature filter.

If you try to draw water from a single source with two pumps, it can affect the flow of both pumps.

The two skimmers will provide more than enough flow for the filtration pump without using the main drain.

 

[JamesW]

One reference says 6 ft/sec for the suction and the other says 8 feet, but the newest standard is 6 feet per second.

ANSI/APSP/ICC-15 2011 American National Standard for Residential Swimming Pool and Spa Energy...

This standard covers energy efficiency requirements for permanently installed residential aboveground/onground and inground swimming pools and inground spas operated by the property owner and used for

issuu.com

ANSI/APSP/ICC-15 2011 American National Standard for Residential Swimming Pool and Spa Energy...

Published on Jan 15, 2020

This standard covers energy efficiency requirements for permanently installed residential aboveground/onground and inground swimming pools and inground spas operated by the property owner and used for bathing. This standard is intended to cover certain aspects of the swimming pool filtration system design; equipment, including pool and spa heaters; installation; and operational capabilities, for the purpose of minimizing energy consumption while maintaining water quality and temperature. Full Title: ANSI/APSP/ICC-15 2011 American National Standard for Residential Swimming Pool and Spa Energy Efficiency. Includes Addenda A.

ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools

This standard applies to permanently installed residential inground swimming pools intended for noncommercial use as a swimming pool by not more than three owner families and their guests and exceeding 24 in. (61 cm) in water depth. EXCEPTION: Separate ponds, fountains, decorative water...

issuu.com

ANSI/PHTA/ICC-7 2020 American National Standard for Suction Entrapment Avoidance in Swimming Pools..

The purpose of this standard is to establish anti-entrapment performance requirements for public and residential swimming pools, wading pools, field-constructed spas and hot tubs, and any other bather-accessible body of water, including but not limited to, catch pools, infinity edge basins, and...

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thephta Publisher Publications - Issuu

The Pool & Hot Tub Alliance advances the common interests of the industry by providing education, industry leadership, legislative and regulatory advocacy, standards development, research and market growth to increase our members' professionalism, knowledge and profitability.

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[JamesW]

Will the equipment pad be at the same elevation as the pool or higher or lower?

Are you getting automation?

If yes, what automation?

 

[Duffatola]

Will the equipment pad be at the same elevation as the pool or higher or lower?

Are you getting automation?

If yes, what automation?

Pad = same elevation
Pentair i8PS

 

[JamesW]

Pentair i8PS

What is the actual part number for the system?

Does that include the subpanel?

Does that include salt cell and a transformer in the load center?

Will that be enough relays?

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/parts-sheets/automation/intellicenter-control-system-replacement-parts

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Can’t add much of anything to what @JamesW has posted but I will say this - with a pool as complex (and very nicely designed) as yours, why on earth would your builder be putting an EasyTouch automation panel on it??? That technology is practically last century. You want an IntelliCenter for your pool.

 

[JamesW]

why on earth would your builder be putting an EasyTouch automation panel on it???

They are getting the IntelliCenter.

With all of the complexity, maybe go with the i10PS instead of the i8PS.

Make sure to get the subpanel, salt cell and salt transformer included.

 

[Duffatola]

They are getting the IntelliCenter.

With all of the complexity, maybe go with the i10PS instead of the i8PS.

Make sure to get the subpanel, salt cell and salt transformer included.

The Pentair Model Code is 8PSIC4O which comes bundled with the subpanel, IC40 and transformer and two intellivalves. Based on the projected amount of valve actuators I estimated (3), relays, etc. I felt the i8PS would be sufficient. The pool builders I conferred with advised it would be okay as well. Also, it can be expanded, correct? Obviously I don't want to get caught short-handed and not be able to control the spa, lights, water features, etc.
I also requested the Pentair IntelliCenter WiFi Link 523557.

 

[Duffatola]

@JamesW BTW, I am still sifting through the vast amount of useful information/data and words of advice you kindly provided and will be responding soon. One question to start off with is were your findings based on individual "home runs" for the sheers and bubblers? Wouldn't that make a difference versus running a single line to the sheers and branching off at the pool? Same for the bubblers?

 

[JamesW]

It depends on exactly what you want to control.

I suspect that it will likely be enough, but it never hurts to have more.

They don't really make expansion easy.

How many relays do you think you will need for everything?

You will have at least one pool light and one spa light.

If you have more than 1 pool light, it can be nice to put them on different relays to give you more control.

The Colorvision lights will require a relay.

You might also want to control outdoor lights.

If you have a spa blower, then you want a relay for that.

The (3) pumps get continuous power and I am not sure if they require a relay for each pump.

The filter pump has to have a relay, which the SWG will be connected to.

What about the firebowls, how will they be controlled?

 

[JamesW]

One question to start off with is were your findings based on individual "home runs" for the sheers and bubblers?

I would do a single 1.5" to the bubblers (20 gpm + 20 gpm = 40 gpm) and a separate 2" line to each shear (up to 60 gpm per sheer) so that you can balance the flow going to the sheers using valves near the system or even run 1 or two sheers instead of 3 if you want to change the effect.

Maybe you will want to run just the center or maybe the two outside sheers to create a different effect at different times.

For the water feature pump you would have a 4" suction and (1) 1.5" line and (3) 2" return lines.

 

[Duffatola]

I would use a CCP520 on the sheers and probably none on the infinity edge.

Unfortunately I have no room on the pad for another CCP. It'll be tight quarters for everything as it is. I have a 320 earmarked for the negative edge pump but I don't believe it will do the trick based on the data you've provided and it's rating of 120GPM. Now, if bypassing the filter for the bubblers, which makes sense, makes a difference, perhaps the 320 is back on the table? Otherwise, if filtering is not an option, I can only hope the rock traps do their jobs and any other debris is not rigid and can be cleared.

If yes, you need a separate suction for that as well at 4" line and four main drains or two channel drains or 2 unblockable drains for suction in the trough.

I had only planned on one A&A channel drain and upsizing from 3" to 4" suction piping. Would that not be sufficient given the 4" size? If no and two drains are recommended, would they be run independently back to the pad?

You should have a separate 2" line to each sheer.

Planning on 2.5" to the sheers - all run independently.

You should have a 4" return for the infinity edge.

As planned there will be three individual 2.5" return lines to the pool - 63', 55', 27'. Will this be suitable instead?

You can put the main filtration pump and the water feature pump on the same main drain and then just keep the line to the filtration pump closed most of the time and only use it if necessary like draining the pool.

This sound like a good idea since two drain lines are already stubbed out. On the other hand, I'm concerned that a floor level suction for the water features is asking for trouble in terms of sucking up debris, especially pebbles. I believe if I can't filter the water the next best thing is to run a side wall suction and hope the aforementioned rock traps and the pump (the PB has agreed to swap XF's for all the Intelliflo's) strainer does a good job. To that end, are there not finer mesh add on filters that can provide more efficient pump filtering and secondly, if so, would that effect performance?

I would do a 4" suction and return line for the infinity edge with no filter.

I definitely plan on upsizing from 3" to 4" for both the negative edge and water features suction

The XF pumps are better pumps

PB has agreed to provide in lieu of intelliflo's

You need a check valve for the Infinity edge line.

I would do (2) 2.5" x 3" Jandy check valves after the pump (not in front of the pump).

I would do a 2.5" x 3" Jandy NeverLube two-way valve before the pump for service.

Please see my novice equipment pad piping plan. If you could mark up with recommendations/corrections, that would be a big help. It still shows 3" negative edge and water filter suction.

Thank for the guidance, James. As a wise man once said "Do it right the first time."

 

[Duffatola]

For the water feature pump you would have a 4" suction and (1) 1.5" line and (3) 2" return lines.

Left one out. As mentioned the sheers will have 3 - 2.5" lines. The bubblers, as planned will be 2 - 2" lines. My thinking is by running them independently I have the ability to control each one in the event there was an issue with one pushing higher than the other.

BTW, I'll tackle the control topics tomorrow.

 

[JamesW]

I have a 320 earmarked for the negative edge pump but I don't believe it will do the trick based on the data you've provided and it's rating of 120GPM.

I would rather have the filter on the sheers than the infinity edge.

The CCP 520 takes the same space as a 320 except that the 520 is taller.

You can put the filter on the Infinity edge, but you would still need a way to filter the water going to the sheers.

I had only planned on one A&A channel drain and upsizing from 3" to 4" suction piping.

A single drain should be OK as it is rated up to 196 GPM.

The trough is more susceptible to sucking in air if the water gets low, so a second drain can help reduce the risk of sucking air.

However, if the trough is big enough, it should be OK.

Planning on 2.5" to the sheers - all run independently.

2" should be fine, but you can do 2.5" if you want.

As planned there will be three individual 2.5" return lines to the pool - 63', 55', 27'. Will this be suitable instead?

Is this for the infinity edge?

For the Infinity edge, you can do a 3" return or a 4" return or you can do (3) 2.5" returns if you want.

Why 3 returns for the infinity edge?

 

[JamesW]

What about a way to use the sheers as a return for the Infinity edge?

If you pull from the trough and go through a CCP520 filter and then return the water to the pool through the sheers, you get both for the price of one.

Maybe interconnect the two systems with valves so that you can do that if you want or go back to separate systems.

It would only work if the flow for the edge and the flow for the sheers and bubblers was equal, which it probably can be at least sometimes.

Why run two pumps when you can get both features to work on a single pump?

An infinity edge pump pulls from the trough and returns the water to the pool so that the water in the pool is about 5/16” to about 3/8” higher than the weir wall top which causes the water to continuously flow over the top of the weir wall top edge.

A 3/8” lift means that there is an extra 270 gallons of water in the pool and 270 gallons removed from the trough while the infinity edge pump is on.

If the basin/trough is 25 feet long by 3 feet wide and 4 feet deep, it holds 2,244 gallons.

If you remove 270 gallons, that’s about 5.78 inches.

So, the water level in the basin/trough should go from about 4 feet deep to about 3’6” deep while the basin/trough pump is on.

 

[Duffatola]

Why 3 returns for the infinity edge?

Sorry, yes the 63', 55' and 27' lines are for the negative edge. Why 3? - PB recommendation. Based on what? Experience??? Good question. They knew I wanted the ability to be able to push a lot of volume over the edge if desired. Based on the amount of volume 3 - 2.5" lines will supply, could I get by with a single or double 3" or 4".

The trough is more susceptible to sucking in air if the water gets low, so a second drain can help reduce the risk of sucking air.

However, if the trough is big enough, it should be OK.

James, I don't understand the concept. Both drains are at the same level (at the trough floor). If one sucks air, so should the other one.

I would rather have the filter on the sheers than the infinity edge. The CCP 520 takes the same space as a 320 except that the 520 is taller.

In other words, I could substitute a 520 in place of the 320 and use it for the water feature pump instead of the negative edge, correct? The PB is a big proponent in having a filter for the basin due to the fact "it's a big skimmer". I understand and support that approach but I also fear unclearable clogs in the sheers witch requires stone work removal and replacement. However, how great are the odds for the sheers to clog if a side suction is used? Obviously the post plaster brushing will create aggregate (however I would think those particles will be too small to worry about) and there may possibly be residual construction aggregate as well. But other than than, I don't see how much, if any, will enter the pool. After all, it will be surrounded by tile/travertine and 90% or the time, just my wife and I will be in the water and a 100% chance no kids will. The most likely debris culprit will be a few pine needles, leaves or grass clippings. I don't like the idea of using the auxiliary port on the A&A main drain as an unfiltered suction because that is where debris is most likely to wind up in my opinion. So.... "do I feel lucky, punk"? (no offense...) Should I filter the "big skimmer" or should I filter the sheers. Cost wise, the only added cost will be upgrading to a 520.

What about a way to use the sheers as a return for the Infinity edge?

Although a novel idea (to me, at least), I believe I prefer to run the two systems independently. I have another idea that just dawned on me. I'm working on the drawing.

 

[JamesW]

Based on the amount of volume 3 - 2.5" lines will supply, could I get by with a single or double 3" or 4".

Either way will work.

James, I don't understand the concept. Both drains are at the same level (at the trough floor). If one sucks air, so should the other one.

The more drains, the less velocity at the drain and the less chance of creating a vortex that reaches the water surface.

Since the water should be at least 3 feet deep at all times, the chance of sucking in air is low.

The PB is a big proponent in having a filter for the basin due to the fact "it's a big skimmer".

That makes sense.

You can put the CCP520 on the infinity edge and then use inline strainers on the sheers.

However, how great are the odds for the sheers to clog if a side suction is used?

You can install a strainer on each line to each sheer.

A Sheer Descent filter/strainer (p/n 3456), or equivalent, must be installed on the return side of the pump, between the pump and the waterfall. Refer to Figure 11.

FILTER IS REQUIRED for separate pump installations, as large debris must not be allowed to enter the waterfall unit.

For installations requiring up to 60 gallons (227 l) per minute, use one Sheer Descent filter/strainer.

https://www.jandy.com/-/media/zodiac/global/downloads/h/h0347100.pdf