Pool guy told me this is how it's done. I disagree

[Brandon1023]

First post here. I've seen lots of great info on this site as a long time reader and now I have a question. To make a long story short, we had the coping elevated in our pool and the plan is to get diamond Brite

The problem is that 8 years ago, we made the mistake of using epoxy pool paint on the entire pool. After doing my research, I've seen the general method is to either sandblast or chip out the plaster at this point.

The guy we went with is basically subcontracting people to do the work and he put in the contract that there would be surface demolition due to the paint. So today, he sent a guy out here who used a chipping hammer to make little quarter-sized chips in the plaster every few inches apart. In the attached pictures are his definition of surface demolition. Guy told me that you only chip out when there's several layers of plaster and the fact that the little holes he made are so close to each other will help give a good bond after they use Bond Kote.

In addition, the other day, the tile guys were putting mortar right over the dirty, painted steps. I just let them do it and ended up ripping it off and grinding the area with a diamond wheel, then I put the tile back, but I think it's going to have to come off again since it's bonded to the plaster. So that's another thing he was wrong about and assured me it's how it's done.

Im at a loss here with this guy but he was the only person who'd even give an estimate, but I'm starting to regret using him for the job. He did a great job on my neighbor's pool but it was only a plaster with bond Kote. If it's possible, I can chip it out myself to save the money and the pool guy is going to refuse it anyway. Any advice is appreciated. Obviously his method is completely wrong, right?

Thanks,
Brandon

 

[Brandon1023]

I should also add that they bonded the water line tile by adding a layer of mortar, followed by a layer of Versabond thinset. Just want an opinion on that too.

 

[clambert1273]

Wrong lol here is what a chipout looks like and this was completely done for a replaster

 

[zea3]

Are they planning to plaster on top of tile?
@jimmythegreek @JamesW @onBalance any suggestions on how replaster prep should go?

 

[jamjam]

It’s plausible that if using a bond coat he just wants to rough the surface, however, it looks like that “chip” job caused a lot of loose material that I assume needs to come off. I think what you need to ask him is that if he has any experience plastering over epoxy paint. Sure a full chip out might only be needed if there are multiple layers of plaster but what about paint over plaster? Also from what I have read on some industry blogs you want to make sure there is a full chip out at the water line and around outlets.
The good news is that what they did is better than doing too much, and destroying your pool.

 

[Brandon1023]

Are they planning to plaster on top of tile?
@jimmythegreek @JamesW @onBalance any suggestions on how replaster prep should go?

I guess they're planning to plaster up to the point where the water line tile is.

It’s plausible that if using a bond coat he just wants to rough the surface, however, it looks like that “chip” job caused a lot of loose material that I assume needs to come off. I think what you need to ask him is that if he has any experience plastering over epoxy paint. Sure a full chip out might only be needed if there are multiple layers of plaster but what about paint over plaster? Also from what I have read on some industry blogs you want to make sure there is a full chip out at the water line and around outlets.
The good news is that what they did is better than doing too much, and destroying your pool.

He told me that in the past, sandblasting doesn't always remove all the paint, but now, he's leaving all the paint and claiming that the little chips the worker made will be enough to hold the new plaster.

What is a partial chip out vs a full one?

Also, what kind of tool can I use? I can rent a chipping hammer and roughen the whole surface of the pool but I'm sure it's a huge job.

 

[Brandon1023]

Currently the new tile is bonded to the old plaster

 

[JamesW]

You can't/shouldn't plaster over paint.

 

[jamjam]

Yeah I’d pause and make sure 100% the surface can accept new plaster. You are at the point in time now where you in 5 years will wish you could go back in time to.

as a layperson I’m assuming you want that paint off and JamesW knows his stuff and says the same. I think you need to figure out what is the most efficient mechanical means of getting the paint off. I assume a flat sharp chisel bit on an electric demo hammer held at a shallow angle could do the job. Sand blasting or maybe a pressure wash?

this guy won’t be around in 5 years when it starts delaminating so unless multiple experts tell you “yeah sure we plaster over paint all the time” I would go on the assumption that you should not and I would pause until you 100% are confident you know the answer.

 

[Brandon1023]

Yeah I’d pause and make sure 100% the surface can accept new plaster. You are at the point in time now where you in 5 years will wish you could go back in time to.

as a layperson I’m assuming you want that paint off and JamesW knows his stuff and says the same. I think you need to figure out what is the most efficient mechanical means of getting the paint off. I assume a flat sharp chisel bit on an electric demo hammer held at a shallow angle could do the job. Sand blasting or maybe a pressure wash?

this guy won’t be around in 5 years when it starts delaminating so unless multiple experts tell you “yeah sure we plaster over paint all the time” I would go on the assumption that you should not and I would pause until you 100% are confident you know the answer.

Thanks for the reply, you're absolutely right about wanting to go back to this point in time. I am thinking about renting a 7" angle grinder with a concrete grinding disc such as the one in the pic to grind down the surface of the plaster and getting the paint off. I can get some help if anything. As long as this will ensure a good bond between the old plaster and the new.

I tried a 3000 psi pressure washer with a 0 degree tip and it didn't even affect the paint slightly.

 

[JamesW]

Hire someone to come out and sandblast the paint off.

 

[Brandon1023]

Hire someone to come out and sandblast the paint off.

I've considered it but there's not many companies out here that do it and the one that quoted me was a minimum of $2000.

Also, does anyone know if Versabond is okay for under water? The way they did the tiles was with a layer of mortar, followed by a layer of Versabond.

 

[jamjam]

Also, does anyone know if Versabond is okay for under water?

Depends on what type - i think there are a few different - you can check Custom Building's website for the spec sheet - though if you look on home depot website and click on custom building products thin sets and mortars you can see where it compares other mixes and you can see which ones say specifically "pool" for the applications - flex bond and premium LFT both say "pools" where i believe the versa bond mixes do not (though that doesn't necessarily mean they are not) - also you can email the custom building people and they will email you back pretty quick - they are pretty responsive.

 

[Brandon1023]

Depends on what type - i think there are a few different - you can check Custom Building's website for the spec sheet - though if you look on home depot website and click on custom building products thin sets and mortars you can see where it compares other mixes and you can see which ones say specially "pool" for the applications - flex bond and premium LFT both say "pools" where i believe the versa bond mixes do not (though that doesn't necessarily mean they are not) - also you can email the custom building people and they will email you back pretty quick - they are pretty responsive.

Thank you I'll look into that.

 

[jamjam]

$2k to sandblast and cleanup your pool sounds like a decently reasonable quote (at least by NY standards) but I can see why you would want to avoid paying that - you might be able to rent the equipment and do it yourself

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[JamesW]

If you sandblast, protect the tile.

 

[Brandon1023]

Hey everyone I want to update what's going on. I bought a 7" angle grinder today with a diamond cup today at Home Depot and that tool has worked wonders. Only downside is that it must weigh 25 lb total and it really kills your forearms. On the flip side, I also got two diamond cups for my 4.5" angle grinders and will be having a friend help me out if the weather permits. I was able to do about 20% of the pool today before it started raining here in good old Miami.

The tool works fabulously to grind down the plaster and ultimately remove the terrible epoxy.

In one picture, you can see the difference of the exposed plaster and the old paint above the jet.

In the other picture, you can see the texture the tool carved into the plaster, which should give for a nice bond with the new plaster.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Remember if you leave the old plaster, that is now your base the new is sitting on. I'm never a fan of leaving old plaster. A full chip out guarantees a long lasting plaster job. Nothing better than adhering to concrete. And for the record you cannot plaster over paint period. The little holes are not enough adhesion points for a plaster job.

 

[Brandon1023]

Remember if you leave the old plaster, that is now your base the new is sitting on. I'm never a fan of leaving old plaster. A full chip out guarantees a long lasting plaster job. Nothing better than adhering to concrete. And for the record you cannot plaster over paint period. The little holes are not enough adhesion points for a plaster job.

Yea I'm aware of the dual layer. I've read up on listening for hollow areas under the old plaster but I'm not sure what kind of tool you'd use. The plaster seems to be in good shape. I've tried chipping it off with an air hammer and it's on there good.

In the pics above, you can see since we had the coping raised up two inches, this left a space below the new waterline tile which they filled with mortar before the tile job. Do I need to grind this off as well? It seems like a good idea to get that part bare. And I will chip around the fixtures since this guy doesn't want to do his job.

 

[Brandon1023]

Okay so, this has been quite the job. I've been at it with a friend for two days and we got everything ground off between the 7" grinder and the two 4-1/2" grinders. I'll probably be resting tomorrow and then I'll fix a couple tiles I chipped and get off any epoxy we missed. Thanks to everyone who chimed in I appreciate it. Below is a pic of the floor of the pool before and after we used the grinder on it.