New Home Buyer - Discovered Bond Beam Damage - Need Advice

[rygz103]

Hello TFP,

I love the support I'm reading from all the experienced pool owners.
I made an offer on a home built in the 1970s however when the pool was uncovered, we discovered some damage to the tiles and a horizontal crack in the bond beams.

Further, when we inspected the home, the seller had a worker doing repairs to the pool which they did not disclose.
Is it possible to determine the severity of the damage and conclude if the worker was doing a correct fix?

I am looking to bring a contractor to the home to help me understand what damage would need to be repaired and if there are any other issues I should be made aware of.
The home is in Northern NJ. I'm hoping to make a relationship with someone in the area that can help me with my pool over the years.

Thank you so much!

 

[cowboycasey]

Welcome to TFP

Not sure what he is doing, but I would pay someone who knows pools to inspect every part of that pool.. just the tile and coping repair could be 10k or more...

 

[rygz103]

Welcome to TFP

Not sure what he is doing, but I would pay someone who knows pools to inspect every part of that pool.. just the tile and coping repair could be 10k or more...

Hey thanks for the reply! Definitely appreciate the advice. I am meeting with a pool builder/ project manager for some rough estimates this Saturday. The pool is in Northern NJ so it definitely gets a varied temperature expanding and contracting the concrete.

In doing some research, I see there is a horizontal crack line on the bond beam which looks like its throughout. I believe in order to fix that we would need to dig up the deck and redo the bond beam. Looks like the workers were placing bandaid on a bullet hole. Anything specific I should be asking the pool builder? Greatly appreciate the support!
Pool Builder is from Rin Robyn Pools® - Since 1958

 

[cowboycasey]

Tell them you want a permanent fix that will last years and not a fast fix, you do not want the same thing happening again in 3 or 4 years... I also just saw a complete crack through the coping and deck above 1 of your skimmers, I bet they will need to completely take off all the coping and start over with the install...

It really looks to be no expansion joint between the coping and the deck, there should be at least 1/2 inch gap with flexible joint filler in between the deck and coping (looks like grey glue)..

 

[rygz103]

Thank you! This is very helpful!!

 

[ajw22]

It looks like you may have cantilevered coping with the poured deck. The expansion joint should keep the coping and deck from being coupled to the pool structure. The pool and the deck need to be able to move independently.

If the expansion joint is lost or never properly created the ground movement puts pressure on the bond beam that causes the type of cracks you see.

If I am correct then the deck and coping need to be removed, the bond beam repaired, tile replaced, and new coping and deck installed. Not a trivial or inexpensive project.

What is the condition of the plaster? You might as well plan on replastering the pool while doing everything else.

See Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

 

[rygz103]

It looks like you may have cantilevered coping with the poured deck. The expansion joint should keep the coping and deck from being coupled to the pool structure. The pool and the deck need to be able to move independently.

If the expansion joint is lost or never properly created the ground movement puts pressure on the bond beam that causes the type of cracks you see.

If I am correct then the deck and coping need to be removed, the bond beam repaired, tile replaced, and new coping and deck installed. Not a trivial or inexpensive project.

What is the condition of the plaster? You might as well plan on replastering the pool while doing everything else.

See Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

This is very helpful, thank you so much ajw!
Everything you're saying makes sense. I also expect some water drainage issue on the outside of the pool where the grass meats the Cantilevered walkway (based on the photos of the repairs I saw). I'm worried the repair work that was done is not great, its under 30 degree weather right now. Still waiting for paperwork or contact information for that repair.

I think the condition of the plaster is not great so I would most likely need to redo that too. I also hear the heater is on its way out (propane), and that I could build a natural gas line from the house to the pool heater and get a new heater. I'm hoping I can get a reasonable quote from Rin Robyn this Saturday and schedule to do all the work this March-April before we open the pool. Am I crazy to take on a pool like this??

I will let you know how it goes this weekend and share the results!

 

[ajw22]

The pool is very repairable. If the house price is right the pool is not a showstopper. I would not want the seller to do any repairs. Whatever the seller does is not likely to be a quality long term fix. Negotiate to buy it as is.

Pool builders are really slammed and probably totally booked for most of this year. It may take you a while to schedule quality repairs.

 

[Bigpaws]

It look like a large drop off on the other side of the fence. How high is that?

-bigpaws

 

[rygz103]

It look like a large drop off on the other side of the fence. How high is that?

-bigpaws

Hey bigpaws! I'm not sure of the exact height, I'll get a measurement on Saturday.
It is high, I know that ~ at least 10ft.

Anything else I should consider checking out with the topography when I'm there? Appreciate you looking at the photos!!

R

 

[Dirk]

Just be sure you're confident that your pool contractor is working for you, not for himself, and that he knows what's he's doing (something you can't assume, unfortunately). You might get more than one guy out there, I would. See if you get the same story. I bought a house with pool and thought I was getting a free pool (based on neighborhood comps). The pool was only about 4 years old. Well, it ended up costing me about $15K (I upgraded all the equipment and refinished the plaster). I'd do it again, still better than the $75K it would have taken from scratch. But my pool had good bones. Could have gone the other way.

So you do need to be careful. We have a story here where a new owner discovered the previous one hid what he knew to be wrong with the pool. Pretty much unrepairable. New York I think it was, which doesn't favor home buyers with pesky things like disclosure laws and the like. Does New Jersey have a similar "pay $500 and disclose nothing" law? Crazy stuff. His was on a similar slope in back and had some structural defects that would have taken a completely new build (plus demoing the old pool) to fix. We never heard from him again. He probably sold the house and pulled the same stunt on the next guy.

Sorry for the scare tactic, but better that than not knowing. Go slow, be thorough. You might need to ask for an extended escrow if you have trouble getting experienced pool contractors and inspectors out to the property. Don't rely on a home inspector. They'll try to sell you a add-on pool inspection. I had one of those, he missed some pretty expensive problems with my pool. You need a pool inspection specialist, or a pool builder (but don't assume a builder can inspect a pool thoroughly, it's a different skill set). Assume the worst and hope to be pleasantly surprised, not the other way around. Good luck. I hope it works out, because buying a house with a sound pool is waaaaay cheaper than building from scratch.

 

[rygz103]

Just be sure you're confident that your pool contractor is working for you, not for himself, and that he knows what's he's doing (something you can't assume, unfortunately). You might get more than one guy out there, I would. See if you get the same story. I bought a house with pool and thought I was getting a free pool (based on neighborhood comps). The pool was only about 4 years old. Well, it ended up costing me about $15K (I upgraded all the equipment and refinished the plaster). I'd do it again, still better than the $75K it would have taken from scratch. But my pool had good bones. Could have gone the other way.

So you do need to be careful. We have a story here where a new owner discovered the previous one hid what he knew to be wrong with the pool. Pretty much unrepairable. New York I think it was, which doesn't favor home buyers with pesky things like disclosure laws and the like. Does New Jersey have a similar "pay $500 and disclose nothing" law? Crazy stuff. His was on a similar slope in back and had some structural defects that would have taken a completely new build (plus demoing the old pool) to fix. We never heard from him again. He probably sold the house and pulled the same stunt on the next guy.

Sorry for the scare tactic, but better that than not knowing. Go slow, be thorough. You might need to ask for an extended escrow if you have trouble getting experienced pool contractors and inspectors out to the property. Don't rely on a home inspector. They'll try to sell you a add-on pool inspection. I had one of those, he missed some pretty expensive problems with my pool. You need a pool inspection specialist, or a pool builder (but don't assume a builder can inspect a pool thoroughly, it's a different skill set). Assume the worst and hope to be pleasantly surprised, not the other way around. Good luck. I hope it works out, because buying a house with a sound pool is waaaaay cheaper than building from scratch.

Thank you Dirk, this is very helpful.
I'm honestly not sure about a pay $500 and disclose nothing law. I did have some very basic information on the sellers disclosure, I'll post a photo.
I also received the invoice for that work that was completed without being disclosed, I'll post that too ~ doesn't look like it was a reputable service company unfortunately.

I'm going to hopefully get the estimate for the repair work needed this weekend and can finalize our negotiations on the house.
I will definitely report back here once I have more information. You all are amazing!!!

 

[Dirk]

Well, that repair invoice would have been more impressive if it had included a contractor's license number (assuming those exist in Jersey). I'd want to have a conversation with that company to find out exactly what they did (and what they might have hidden)!

The disclosure statement lists "Bond Beam Repair." That's a red flag. Does that mean it was repaired once before, and is cracking again? Or are they disclosing this current repair? You're going to need to ask for more details and paperwork on that repair, and contact the repair provider to get to the bottom of what that notation actually means... Something for your buyer realtor to track down. They make half the listing commission, for doing basically nothing, so put 'em to work!

 

[Dirk]

Oh, and the invoice lists a new motor, and the disclosure statement lists a new pump, two years ago. What's up with that? Your buyer agent should be all over this kind of stuff. If they have been, great, if not, you need to get them off their butts. And ask them about New York's $500 disclosure dealio, and see if there's anything like that in Jersey. It's a very nasty deal for a buyer.

 

[ajw22]

I'm honestly not sure about a pay $500 and disclose nothing law.

That is a New York State thing. NJ has stricter disclosure laws then NY.

 

[ajw22]

Oh, and the invoice lists a new motor, and the disclosure statement lists a new pump, two years ago. What's up with that? Your buyer agent should be all over this kind of stuff. If they have been, great, if not, you need to get them off their butts.

Brokers have no responsibility to verify the accuracy of disclosure forms. Their responsibility is to present the disclosure statements as prepared by the Seller to any Buyer. For liability reasons any questions about the details on the disclosure to a Broker will get the answer of they will ask the Seller.

It is the Buyers responsibility to take the Sellers disclosure with a grain of salt and do their own inspections. Quite a few times my questioning a Seller has caused them to revise their disclosure forms since once they are aware that the disclosure is not correct they truly have liability giving it out. They do not have liability if they answered the discoloure questions "to the best of their knowledge at the time". You can never tell if a Seller was misinformed, confused, or covering something up when an error is found in the Seller disclosure form.

Cavet Emptor & Trust but Verify .

 

[Dirk]

Let me clarify. The Buyer agent, who is presumably getting paid for their time and advice (and way too much IMO), should be pointing the buyer to these types of "finds." Number one. Then they should help the buyer coordinate and arrange, by any means available, the clarification of any issues, whether that be by a proper, qualified inspector or otherwise. I did not mean to imply that the buyer or seller agent be made responsible for anything, other than performing their duties. The buyer agent is supposed to act as your advocate. The seller agent, as far as I'm concerned, is the enemy and can't be trusted for anything.

I've had agents that barely qualified as such, and shuffled paperwork in front of me for my review. And other agents that went over every word of that paperwork, and every inch of the property, looking for anything that would affect me or the purchase. I was encouraging the OP to seek the latter.

 

[rygz103]

It is the Buyers responsibility to take the Sellers disclosure with a grain of salt and do their own inspections. Quite a few times my questioning a Seller has caused them to revise their disclosure forms since once they are aware that the disclosure is not correct they truly have liability giving it out. They do not have liability if they answered the discoloure questions "to the best of their knowledge at the time". You can never tell if a Seller was misinformed, confused, or covering something up when an error is found in the Seller disclosure form.

This is so helpful, appreciate the open forum here. Seriously! I feel well equipped for tomorrow. And I will report back.
Unfortunately, my broker has not been very helpful in any of this, reluctant to do what I ask and instead asks me, "is this pool going to make the deal fall through?"

It's been my effort alone to cause concern over the pool and the way the seller and agent have disclosed the information.
I was never told more then a few tiles have fallen off due to owner not dropping the waterline low enough for closing this winter, and that those tiles are being repaired, otherwise perfect... I know thats not the case so I'm hoping there aren't bigger causes for concern after our walk through tomorrow.

The project manager coming to the site is able to give me estimates for now on the work needed and an additional site inspection would be required by construction team for exact quotes (when they would most likely need to drain the pool entirely, and pop the hydrostatic release valves)

More to come, appreciate you all. Regardless of these undisclosed issues, the support youve been providing is keeping me positive to think whatever the problem may be, it can be solved.

 

[Dirk]

"is this pool going to make the deal fall through?"

To be frank, this is what I was sensing by you coming here seemingly unaware of a lot of these issues. That's not a criticism of you, how could you know this stuff? It was a criticism of your agent, which is why I said what I said about agents. It is true that he cannot be responsible for knowing everything there is to know about a pool. But what he doesn't know should be discovered, and he should coordinate that discovery, and know enough to know to coordinate it! I'm probably reading into it, but the statement "is this pool going to make the deal fall through?" sounds a lot like "Is all this trouble worth my time?" Sorry, just projecting, and playing devil's advocate...

the support youve been providing is keeping me positive to think whatever the problem may be, it can be solved.

That is mostly true, if you have deep pockets. The pool might need only simple fixes. But it is on a pile of dirt, next to a significant slope, and that is a red flag, especially when cracking in the structure might be evident (if, in fact, the structure is actually cracked). If the soil in which your pool is installed is like mine, a product of loping off an existing hill, revealing naturally compacted soil below, then you could be in good shape. But if that pile of dirt was formed during house construction by grading it into existence, then that is another issue. Was it properly compacted and prepared before the pool was installed? Was a soils report done? Any soil engineering done? Is there a retaining wall below, on the slope? If the soil is moving and settling due to the weight of the pool, then that could explain the cracks and be an early warning of more problems to follow, possibly resulting in the need for significantly costly remediation.

Again, this is me just being overly cautious on your behalf. Are you prepared to pay $50-100K to fix a sinking pool, or have it replaced altogether? Or demo it if it becomes unsalvageable? Or should you take steps now to determine for sure that can or cannot happen?

 

[ajw22]

It's been my effort alone to cause concern over the pool and the way the seller and agent have disclosed the information.
I was never told more then a few tiles have fallen off due to owner not dropping the waterline low enough for closing this winter, and that those tiles are being repaired, otherwise perfect...

Unfortunately, if that is what the Seller was told and believed then they did nothing wrong.

Many people have no interest in getting to the root cause of problems. A contractor gives the Home Owner a superficial description of the problem and fix that is cosmetic and the HO puts that down on the disclosure and tells the broker. And so it goes until someone asks more questions.

Some peoples ethics are based on plausible deniability.

I think the pool is repairable at a reasonable cost and should not be a reason to kill a good deal on a house you like.

Now that you have "educated" the Seller on the problems with the pool they should be obligated to disclose it to any future Buyers if you pass on it.