I had a service call on Friday to replace a light fixture that the customer thought was rusted and the source of the algae. His was green and I got the fixture out by brail. The ring was rough and oxidized, the housing had an orange coating of oxidation that wiped off mostly and the light cable was that typical cyan copper stain color. The light is an old Swimquip 5082, fresh water only (fresh water pool) fits niche 5068-12, 15 and 17. There is also the number 60000-658. The iron level is .1 which is in range. The copper is very high at .8-.9. The chlorine levels according to the customer won’t hold. Recent test TC .15 and TC is 1.1. Customer adds chlorine but nothing happens. Customer was told rust from light was causing high copper. I’m not sure how iron causes copper. In my last conversation , I asked the customer to have his tap water tested for copper from the source he uses to fill his pool to rule it out. My question is Is the light fixture causing the copper or is the copper causing the light fixture to oxidize and discolor. Is the algae caused by the copper or is the difference in FC and TC enough to cause chloramines? I’m thinking he has a few issues. He also has a sand filter which hasn’t had a sand change in 7 years. Thank you.
High Copper and Algae
- Thread starter Tom Jensen
- Start date
- Jun 22, 2014
- 52,189
- Pool Size
- 17888
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
WHile the light is certainly chewed-up from corrosion, I would look towards some other possibilities:
1 - Overuse of acidic pucks which caused the pH to remain low for too long (corrosion)
2 - Excessive use of copper-based algaecides which increased the copper over time
The algae would have nothing to do with the copper or vise-versa. However there could have been algae trapped behind the light fixture in the niche which is very common. Much of what we do here at TFP is also based on accurate owner testing from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C, so if the owner doesn't have either of those test kits, water chemistry is questionable.
1 - Overuse of acidic pucks which caused the pH to remain low for too long (corrosion)
2 - Excessive use of copper-based algaecides which increased the copper over time
The algae would have nothing to do with the copper or vise-versa. However there could have been algae trapped behind the light fixture in the niche which is very common. Much of what we do here at TFP is also based on accurate owner testing from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C, so if the owner doesn't have either of those test kits, water chemistry is questionable.
Copper usually only looks like that when the pH is below 4.5.
The TA is probably below zero and the CYA is probably above 150.
What are all of the chemistry readings?
Do you have pictures of the pool and the system?
If they have a heater, the exchanger is probably seriously compromised.
The TA is probably below zero and the CYA is probably above 150.
What are all of the chemistry readings?
Do you have pictures of the pool and the system?
If they have a heater, the exchanger is probably seriously compromised.
TA is 0. I asked him why and I can’t remember what he said. The pH is a 6.3. He has a vinyl pool so I’m assuming he’s using Tri-chlor and or dichlor. What, if any effect will copper have on water chemistry? He’s tried using copper remover but that has had no effect. I completely forgot to ask him if he used any copper algaecide. What would you recommend for the algae. Call hypo? Sodium hypochlorite?
Cya is okay but TA is zero, no heater which was the first thing I looked for.
Attachments
- Jun 22, 2014
- 52,189
- Pool Size
- 17888
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
Once copper is in the water, it's in. The only way to remove is a water exchange. It doesn't effect the chemical levels, but copper can eventually cause staining which is very difficult to remove. It can also impact some swimmer's hair or nails. Without question the TA and pH need to be raised right away.
Absolutely. Would you exchange water first and then raise the levels? I’m not sure the TA is zero because the owner said something about it being low for a reason which I can’t remember. I have no reason to believe it isn’t. I’m going to call the customer and ask a few more questions. Thanks.
If the TA is zero, the pH is below 4.5. That explains the look of the light. There is no valid reason to have a zero TA.
The CYA is probably over 100 regardless of what the test results paper shows.
Do you have your own test kit or are you relying on Leslie’s to test customer water?
You’re probably going to need to replace the water to get manageable water, but draining and refilling can be a problem for a vinyl pool.
For a vinyl liner, you never want to drain below leaving 12” in the shallow end. Even then, the liner can float if the ground water is high.
tftestkits.net
Is the liner wrinkled?
The CYA is probably over 100 regardless of what the test results paper shows.
Do you have your own test kit or are you relying on Leslie’s to test customer water?
You’re probably going to need to replace the water to get manageable water, but draining and refilling can be a problem for a vinyl pool.
For a vinyl liner, you never want to drain below leaving 12” in the shallow end. Even then, the liner can float if the ground water is high.
TF-100 Test Kit
Is the liner wrinkled?
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I can’t see the liner. Still haven’t heard back from customer.If the TA is zero, the pH is below 4.5. That explains the look of the light. There is no valid reason to have a zero TA.
The CYA is probably over 100 regardless of what the test results paper shows.
Do you have your own test kit or are you relying on Leslie’s to test customer water?
You’re probably going to need to replace the water to get manageable water, but draining and refilling can be a problem for a vinyl pool.
For a vinyl liner, you never want to drain below leaving 12” in the shallow end. Even then, the liner can float if the ground water is high.
TF-100 Test Kit
Is the liner wrinkled?
Be careful, the liner is probably damaged and you don’t want to get blamed for preexisting damage that you can’t see.
With the pH so low, you don’t want to add any calcium hypochlorite because it will bleach the liner and it will make black stains as the calcium hypochlorite reacts with the copper.
Have the customer acknowledge in writing that the liner is probably in bad condition due to the current chemistry and that you are not responsible for any damage that becomes visible when the water clears up.
Do you know how old the liner is?
Maybe consider doing a tarp method water replacement or replacing the liner if it’s old.
www.troublefreepool.com
Note that the light is no longer safe and it should be disabled by disconnecting power to it until it can be replaced.
With the pH so low, you don’t want to add any calcium hypochlorite because it will bleach the liner and it will make black stains as the calcium hypochlorite reacts with the copper.
Have the customer acknowledge in writing that the liner is probably in bad condition due to the current chemistry and that you are not responsible for any damage that becomes visible when the water clears up.
Do you know how old the liner is?
Maybe consider doing a tarp method water replacement or replacing the liner if it’s old.
Tarp method in-place water replacement
As some of you may know, my pool has been quite problematic with metal staining for many years. For the past 3 years I had been using Metal Magic to control the metal staining but lately, I've been having to use about 2 quarts of Metal Magic a week and have been having problems with chlorine...
www.troublefreepool.com
Note that the light is no longer safe and it should be disabled by disconnecting power to it until it can be replaced.
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Thanks, l finally got in touch with the owner and he said he didn’t use any copper algaecide. His tap water had no copper in it. I’m thinking Copper algaecide is the culprit. What else could cause it. According to the manager of his local pool store he has used buckets of sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity but it’s still zero. I don’t get it. I’m going to test the water myself but I think draining is the ticket and the tarp method looks promising. My question is about the light. Why do I need to replace it if it’s still working?Be careful, the liner is probably damaged and you don’t want to get blamed for preexisting damage that you can’t see.
With the pH so low, you don’t want to add any calcium hypochlorite because it will bleach the liner and it will make black stains as the calcium hypochlorite reacts with the copper.
Have the customer acknowledge in writing that the liner is probably in bad condition due to the current chemistry and that you are not responsible for any damage that becomes visible when the water clears up.
Do you know how old the liner is?
Maybe consider doing a tarp method water replacement or replacing the liner if it’s old.
Tarp method in-place water replacement
As some of you may know, my pool has been quite problematic with metal staining for many years. For the past 3 years I had been using Metal Magic to control the metal staining but lately, I've been having to use about 2 quarts of Metal Magic a week and have been having problems with chlorine...
Note that the light is no longer safe and it should be disabled by disconnecting power to it until it can be replaced.
Thanks.
The TA can actually be negative. Imagine if the TA is zero and someone adds 2 gallons of acid. What’s the TA then?
If the pool is 10,000 gallons, every gallon of acid will lower the TA by 50 ppm. So, a 10k pool with zero TA and 2 gallons of acid added will have a TA of (-100). You have to increase the TA by 100 just to get to zero.
The pH is probably somewhere below 4. The liner is probably ruined. The liner probably has serious wrinkles from the low pH.
The light is now compromised from a safety standpoint. So, even if it is working, in my opinion, it’s unsafe.
If you have a Taylor K-2006C test kit, here is a test you can do.
When the TA is red when you first add the R-0008, the TA is 0 or negative. To calculate the actual TA, use r-0006 base demand to titrate from red to green and then multiply the result by 6.3 to see how negative the TA is.
If you don’t have a K-2006C test kit, you should get one. You need to have a good test kit if you’re going to be doing this as a service.
Make sure that the customer is aware that the liner and equipment are going to be damaged from the long term exposure to the extremely low pH.
Copper can come from algaecide, an ionizer, a “mineral” cartridge, a heater, some trichlor tabs have copper. Those are the main sources of copper.
Note: I wouldn’t rely too much on what the owner says about the chemistry as they clearly have no clue what’s going on with the pool.
I also wouldn’t rely too much on the copper tests as those are likely to be unreliable.
The cyanuric acid is probably well over 150 ppm.
If the copper and cyanuric acid are high, the entire pool can turn purple when you raise the pH and TA due to the formation of copper cyanurate.
This might be a good time to replace the liner and start fresh and do things right.
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