Sanitizing pains. Tried SWG, Liquidator, chlorine tablets and bleach. Tired of fighting. Need help. Thinking Ozonator

[blairsooley]

HELP! Hi all, I have a plaster pool that I am tired of fighting to maintain the FC levels. This is Houston so we get 90s'/100's pretty regularly for months and my pool/hottub w/ spillover is in direct sunlight for most of the year. I use the pool calc and keep the chemicals good at FC 3-4, Ph likes to be high at 7.8 to 8 (a fight to keep low so I've settled on 7.8 as a goal), TA 80 (above that the Ph rises very quickly), CYA 40-50. My problem is the FC. I am the only one in neighborhood that fights with FC and am tired of it. Here's what I've tried.

SWG - The pool has a SWG, which was turned off when I purchased the house and has destroyed the coping around my pool (being replaced this year). It has been removed.
Chlorine tabs - I have a tab feeder. During the summer, on the maximum feeder setting it couldn't keep up with the demand and the CYA got to 70 so I had to turn that off. CYA is now back to 40 after the winter rains.
Hasa Liquidator - Was OK for the first year but a constant pain to fill with bleach. Second year all the fittings and adjustment valve failed. Replaced and they failed the 3rd year. It has been removed.
Bleach - Requires either a 6% 80oz bottle or 7.5% 105oz bottle daily. This is ridiculous as it is impossible to leave unattended.

Considerations
Ozonator (Eclipse 40 Corona Discharge) - A friend has this for a pool-only setup combined with low level chlorine from a tab dispenser and it works great, requiring almost no maintenance and very little chlorine. I saw a notice on this site suggesting Ozonator is not recommended for a pool. The only concern was that it leaves no residual chlorine. If this is paired with low level chlorine from a tab dispenser, would this be a good choice?
UV - A couple of friends have this paired with low level chlorine from a tab dispenser and also say there is little maintenance required. Bulbs would require periodic replacement.
Phosphates - A local guy who provides professional pool services typically uses phosphates, which he says reduced chemical usage significantly, thus allowing just the chlorine tabs
Skate park - Empty the Dang thing and give up (joking...kind of)

Thoughts are much appreciated?

 

[Texas Splash]

Well, you won't have to worry about replies because based on the thread title and the options you are considering, you'll get lots of them. I'll start by saying this .... it's your pool. In the end you will do whatever you want and we understand that. But trying to sanitize with ozone or UV is fruitless. There is something fundamentally "off" with your water chemistry to be eating too much chlorine. I know. My pool water gets close to 98 degrees in the summer with full sun all day. For several years I used liquid chlorine very consistently, and I just installed an SWG. So now you need to figure out what is eating-up your FC.

You have a TF-100, so let's start with a full set of results. If we suspect ANY signs of algae or failing the Overnight Chlorine Loss Test, the next step would be the SLAM Process. Now is the time to do it (if needed) before our temps skyrocket. Most times when a pool owners finds their FC falling, it's because there is some algae hidden somewhere, regardless of how well they think the pool or water looks.

So before you spend money needlessly, let us try to help you crack the code on this issue.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

SWG - The pool has a SWG, which was turned off when I purchased the house and has destroyed the coping around my pool (being replaced this year). It has been removed.

It's more likely the damage was a result of the previous owners failure to maintain proper water chemistry. An increased salt level should not cause this type of damage.

 

[Donldson]

I'm just going to lay it out quickly because I think Splash got it right on:

No ozone, No UV. None of your friends talking up these systems know much about water chemistry, I can guarantee that. I also can guarantee that if I were to test their water I would not allow my children to swim in any of those pools...
I think you misheard someone if you think pool people are adding phosphates to a pool.
Your SWG did not damage the coping. Tablets are acidic and can potentially cause coping damage, but can't say whether that had anything to do with it or not. Salt definitely did not.

Skate park? Eh, there's a lot of liability you probably don't want to take on.

Please listen to Splash. This is not unfixable, but you are looking in a lot of wrong (and costly) directions that aren't going to get you any further away from considering the skate park.

 

[blairsooley]

Thanks for the response. I'll test my chemicals and run the the overnight test, then post for review. I understand the overnight test should read a loss of approx 1PPM. I've done the SLAM over the years a number of times, specifically after hurricanes and floods and its worked well to clear things up but the chlorine use doesn't typically change, about 3PPM/day.

I'm wondering why using Ozone would be fruitless, given that it works well at my friends' pool for the past decade and his pool builder suggested he wouldn't even consider anything else. It's about $800 bucks, which is a small price compared to my sanity. I'm going to his house today and will take a set of tests there as well.

 

[blairsooley]

Appreciate the comments guys. I'm an engineer so I like to do a lot of homework before diving into any solution.

 

[mknauss]

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

A good write up on Ozone systems.

 

[mknauss]

And your daily FC consumption of 3 ppm is quite good. For swim season.

 

[mguzzy]

Thanks for the response. I'll test my chemicals and run the the overnight test, then post for review. I understand the overnight test should read a loss of approx 1PPM. I've done the SLAM over the years a number of times, specifically after hurricanes and floods and its worked well to clear things up but the chlorine use doesn't typically change, about 3PPM/day.

I'm wondering why using Ozone would be fruitless, given that it works well at my friends' pool for the past decade and his pool builder suggested he wouldn't even consider anything else. It's about $800 bucks, which is a small price compared to my sanity. I'm going to his house today and will take a set of tests there as well.

3ppm lose per day sounds about right in the environment you are talking about.. from what I've read of others that live in hot climes.

Marty is spot on. Ozone and UV systems don't sanitize. It may kill algae at some rate but Chlorine is the only thing that will kill bacteria and sanitized water. Ironically I took a UV system off of my pool and installed an SWG which has worked marvelously for 15 years... I concur with Rancho.. salt doesn't do the damage. Its less salty than your tears.

I'm curious to see how this pans out since you already know how the TFP process works.

 

[ajw22]

the chlorine use doesn't typically change, about 3PPM/day.

3 ppm per day of chlorine loss is normal for Texas.

Your issue is how you provide the 3 ppm/day of chlorine your pool needs. There are many methods.

Neither UV, which you already get plenty of for free in Texas, or ozone is a recognized form of sanitation of water. If you are an engineer then you should know that a single data point of your friends experience with ozone does not prove anything. I suggest you stick with science.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

UV Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I suggest you get better quality coping and use a SWG with TFP recommended water chemistry and methods.

 

[blairsooley]

I'm trying to be civil here so putting aside the unwarranted snarkiness about my being an engineer, and assuming the loss rate is acceptable, it seems you are correct in that the problem comes down to delivery. I am a controls engineer so I feel manually inputting large quantities of bleach on a daily basis seems like a poor plan for maintaining a pool if there less onerous ways of sanitizing. I like the idea of reintroducing SWG if it is indeed not a problem with the coping so thank you for that.

The comment about my friend was investigatory, as in why would his situation have worked if I'm hearing that ozone is ineffective. I feel that this deserves investigation, not disregard.

 

[ajw22]

There is a lot written in the Deep End section that may help you in your investigation. Here is one example...

Sanitizers

This thread is all about satisfying my curiosity and by no means should indicate that I am looking for something else. Those of us who have been on TFP for a while understand that there are really only three EPA approved sanitizers that are suitable for widespread use in swimming pools, these...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Donldson]

How do you know his situation works? What is the qualifier for a successful situation? Clear water? His say so?

Where are the test results showing sanitary water? Where is the data showing the amount of ozone in the water to confirm that the device is working as advertised? Where is the proof that said "successful situation" is the result of the ozone and not just luck?

We can absolutely disregard this, because we know what ozone is and what it actually does. One of the best things I have ever seen (on another forum so no link, sorry) was where someone was arguing for months about ozone... until he realized that his generator was actually broken the entire time. We can disregard it because people swear by any system where their water stays clear, despite having no clue as to what the system actually does. There are people who throw a single puck in their skimmer every week and somehow through sheer stupid luck get a clear pool. I hardly call that a system, and I definitely wouldn't set foot in that water. But they sure swear by it.

Your friend's pool might be clear, but if they are running a very low FC and using stabilized chlorine to do it, then there's a really good chance that the active chlorine level is leaving that pool water in a very unsanitary condition.

 

[duraleigh]

I'm an engineer so I like to do a lot of homework before diving into any solution.

Have you done homework into your friends claims? Or more hilariously, the "phosphates" claim?. I'll save you some effort......there is nothing valid there.

You are asking 216,000 members to justify what we have practiced for 15 years......because a couple of friends and some bogus "local pool guy" are filling your head with nonsense.....and, yes, it is nonsense.

As Texas Splash indicated, you won't lack for responses

 

[blairsooley]

I'm pretty excited by the potential of using the SWG so figured I'd try reintroducing it right away. The unit I have is an Aqua Rite Electronic Chlorine Generator and a T-cell 15. They are connected up to my control panel and turned off but I'll need to get new fittings and replumb (no biggie.) I expect there's guidance somewhere on this site to show me how to verify this is still functional and get started with reintroducing it. If either of you know of a specifically good guide, it would be much appreciated.

 

[ajw22]

I'm pretty excited by the potential of using the SWG so figured I'd try reintroducing it right away. The unit I have is an Aqua Rite Electronic Chlorine Generator and a T-cell 15. They are connected up to my control panel and turned off but I'll need to get new fittings and replumb (no biggie.) I expect there's guidance somewhere on this site to show me how to verify this is still functional and get started with reintroducing it. If either of you know of a specifically good guide, it would be much appreciated.

Get the K-1766 Taylor Salt Test to determine current salt level in your water and then use PoolMath to calculate salt required for around 3000 ppm.

Get the proper salt level, connect the SWG up, and then we can help you get the % generation dialed in.

Your CYA and FC target levels will be different with the SWG. See...

What Are My Ideal Pool Levels?

Use our tool to find ideal chemical levels for any swimming pool. Check TFP recommended levels on pH, free chlorine, cyanuric acid, and more.

www.troublefreepool.com

Salt Water Chlorine Generators

Salt Water Generators are designed to produce small amounts of chlorine continuously. This is perfect for day to day use and reduces work for the homeowner.

www.troublefreepool.com

https://www.hayward-pool.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/manuals/AquaRite-AQR-Operation-Installation.pdf

Hayward Aquarite SWG - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Ask if you need more help.

 

[blairsooley]

Excellent. Thanks for the comments and to ajw22 for the guidance. I'll grab a salt test and add it to my total set for posting. I expect I'll need a large amount of salt. Is there a method for dispersing the salt within the water quickly and is this a specific type of salt (i.e. can I just get it at walmart or do I need to go to a pool store and spend $$)?

 

[ajw22]

If you have 0 salt in your pool you would need around 380 lbs of salt. However most pool water has some salt and you don't want to overshoot since the only way to reduce salt in the pool is by draining water. So test first and add about 2/3 of what you calculate you need., let circulate for 24 hours, then top off. Better to sneak up on your target in 2 or 3 doses.

Pool salt is sold in 40 lbs bags. You can find pool salt in the big box stores. Look for Mortons or Diamond Crystal. Do not buy Clorox pool salt as folks have found it may contain contaminants that stained their pool. Some folks use water softener salt without any additives.

Around me HD wanted $10/bag for Mortons pool salt. Last year I paid about $6.50 for it in Wal-Mart but this year WM only had Clorox salt. Local pool store wanted $12/bag and I bought from them. Another pool store wanted $20/bag. Shop around for availability and price.

Dump it all in the deep end and then brush around the stuff that settles to the floor until it dissolves. I use fine pool salt and it dissolves quickly. Let the pump run for 24 hours to mix the salt after adding.

Keep your SWG off when adding salt. You don't want it to get a slug of high salt water that damages it. Turn the SWG on after the 24 hours and it should start up.

 

[mguzzy]

Excellent. Thanks for the comments and to ajw22 for the guidance. I'll grab a salt test and add it to my total set for posting. I expect I'll need a large amount of salt. Is there a method for dispersing the salt within the water quickly and is this a specific type of salt (i.e. can I just get it at walmart or do I need to go to a pool store and spend $$)?

YES! I think your best option is just that.. firing up the ole SWG. AJ.. is the SWG guru.. He can even help diagnose your existing system to see if it still works. I have the same system (I think) Can you post some pics of the serial number on the controller and the cell? That will tell us how old it is. How long has it been out of service? you said you decommisioned it when you moved in, but I don't recall if you said when. They do wear out after 5 years or so depending on your pools conditions.
I get my salt at Walmart.. in my area it is the cheapest ($6.50ish/bag). Morton or Diamond will work great. Stay away from the Clorox stuff, It might be fine but it stained my pool one year.
I found if I dump it in the deep end by the time I sweep it to the shallow end its close to dissolved, but it still needs to mix, that's where the 24 hrs come in. A bunch of splashing kids also helps.
The forum natives are pretty passionate about what works.. so don't take them the wrong way. they just don't want you to waste time on stuff that is not proven or is suspect.

 

[blairsooley]

About to start reinstalling the SWG and here are my numbers today
FC 4, TC 4.5, TA 90 (tends to go down over time but I usually keep at 80-90), CH 350, CYA 45, Salt 1200 (this is my first test and could only get strips for the moment, ordering titrating for future accuracy)

Pool math suggest 225 lbs of salt to hit ajw22's suggested target of 3000 ppm. Any final thoughts before I get started?