WOW this is ironic, I was just having a convo about my pool auto filler. Mine never really shuts off. It keeps adding small amounts at a time, like it adds-stops-adds-stops.. But just small amount, not enough to be worried but enough to make you think that you have a leak... Granted it's hot here in Vegas all summer and at night it never really drops below 80° (until this week). I adjusted the auto float on Thursday to not add water, and today is the first day that I noticed the auto working. The pool dropped about an inch in 3 days. So I'm going to try the bucket test and see what's up...
Water Loss
- Thread starter MyAZPool
- Start date
-
- Tags
- evaporation water loss
- May 3, 2014
- 62,738
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Your evaporation in the desert is still quite high. Especially with cool nights and your pool water warmer than the air temperature. An inch in 3 days is not significant. I am still losing well over 1/2 inch per day.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,740
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The only flow meters capable of measuring rates that low are the type used by municipal water companies on residential lines. When I had my water softener installed back in May, they ran a tap out to my autofill line so now my pool is entirely on zero CH fill water. I asked the company about adding a flow meter and their engineers priced it out but it would have added more to the install cost than what it cost to do the fill line. I figured knowing exact flow volumes was not really worth the added expense (several hundred dollars for a good brass, 3/4” model with analog totalizer, digital output costs more).
For a hose-end total flow meter, I use this -
Sotera FR1118P10 Inline Flowmeter, Digital, Blue/Black Sotera FR1118P10 Inline Flowmeter, Digital, Blue/Black: Amazon.com: Industrial Scientific
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,679
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I've had good luck with this brand:
Plastic Water Meters - WM-PC Series by Flows.com
but I do see that same .25 in the specs. Which is confusing to me, because these meters have the flow indicator that can detect drips of water, as do typical street meters. Pretty sure the city is not giving away water that flows through the meter lower than that rate, which otherwise would mean I'm topping off my 100+ gallons per day for free?
I'd give this Flows company a call and see what is meant by that spec.
Plastic Water Meters - WM-PC Series by Flows.com
but I do see that same .25 in the specs. Which is confusing to me, because these meters have the flow indicator that can detect drips of water, as do typical street meters. Pretty sure the city is not giving away water that flows through the meter lower than that rate, which otherwise would mean I'm topping off my 100+ gallons per day for free?
I'd give this Flows company a call and see what is meant by that spec.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,740
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The specs on that meter show that the accuracy of the meter takes a dive below 0.25 GPM ( or 15 gallons per hour). The way to think about these flow totalizers is that there is a differences between sensing flow and measuring flow. The tiny dial merely tells you that there is some trickle of water flowing that the meter can not accurately total. Even my fancy water softener with the high-end Clack control valve is not able to sense the flow from my pool fill as the rate is too low. That’s not a big deal as one simply adds a bit more to the reserve volume figure to accommodate for a small flow source. I could add a very sensitive flow meter to that line, but it wouldn’t really tell me that much information to make it worth it.
As I understand it, the municipal meters are very expensive for the very reason Dirk mentions - they charging customers for every drop they can
As I understand it, the municipal meters are very expensive for the very reason Dirk mentions - they charging customers for every drop they can
Thanks Matt. Yea, I have been looking at lots. I talked with the engineers at Assured Automation. and they referred me to Kobold to see if they had a flow meter/totalizer that would work on a drip. The engineer there has my number and email and says he will get back to me with something possibly. I want to see what he comes up with first and what it might cost me so I can move ahead with my autofill re-plumb project with or without a meter.
Are you using the Sotera with your autofill?
Hi Dirk. How's it going?
Yes, I started with flows.com and found one very similar to the one you recommended. I liked the WM-50 which is basically just a "plumbed-in" style. But the engineer at Assured Automation said I needed a min flow of .25.
So do you actually have your WM-PC plumbed to your autofill valve? Do you think it's giving you accurate readings?
Your thoughts about a city meter (essentially the same) sure makes a lot of sense!!
Thanks for your thoughts Dirk. I always enjoy reading your posts and replies.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,740
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
No, I use it in this setup -
I have a 3/4 HP submersible pump that I use to drain water out of my deep end. I have a second Sotera on a garden hose that I use to add water to my skimmer. Thus I can measure flow in and flow out to do a differential drain of my pool (warmer, lower density fill water floats on top of the more dense and cold pool water...as long as no pumps are running). My discharge setup gives me about 24 GPM and, depending on how much I open up the spigot, I can get about 10GPM from a standard garden hose. I am currently working to reduce my pool water CH from its recent high value of 1500ppm. I’d like to get it down by half that amount or more and doing the differential drain keeps the plaster submerged.
Wow, that's serious stuff there. Very cool. Thanks much for sharing. I'm not sure I will go to that "depth". But I do just want to get my soft water line plumbed into my autofill valve with a meter/totalizer that is accurate.
Have you ever tested your Sotera on just a drip to see if it will register the water usage at such a low flow?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,740
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
It does not. Those meters have a minimum flow rate of 3GPM or else they are not accurate. They are best suited for higher flow rate applications like hose end filling.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,679
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
No, and might have?
I had purchased four similar models (ones that didn't have to lay horizontal) for a re-plumbing job on a four plex. I wanted to split the city's metering for each unit. (The city wanted $20K EACH for that!!) So I didn't bother too much about accuracy. Truth be told, I didn't even think to look into it, I just assumed it, and as it turns out I didn't need to: I use them to calculate what percentage of the city's meter to charge each tenant, so inaccuracy isn't really an issue. It's close enough for what I'm using them for.
Anywho, I just happened to be doing that project, so had the meters laying around, right when the pool was getting remodeled. I attached one to a garden hose and filled my pool with it. Much higher rate than .25GPM, so my volume number should be good. (Confirmed with testing and dosing.)
I really like having a good number, so I started "selling" the idea here (buying a meter and putting it on a hose), and selected the model I shared with you as "good enough" for this purpose, pretty much the cheapest Flows sells. But there have not been many takers. I later refined the idea to make use of a house's built in water meter, with tips about how to compensate for in-house use while the pool was being filled. That idea got some traction here because it's free! Not that I invented the concept, I'm sure others figured it out, too, well before I did. I just started sharing the idea for new builds and remodels, especially with free-form shapes, because they are really difficult to calculate based on dimensions.
According to this datasheet:
http://s144276.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/poolmiser_ins_sheet.pdf
my autofill can deliver 4000 gallons in 24 hours, so that's 2.77GPM. But it's not clear if that spec means it would deliver water at that rate for each "mini-fill" or if the nature of auto-filling, little sips as the water dips, would mean it would mess with a water meter's accuracy.
I seem to notice that my water level drops by as much as about 1/2". That says to me that the float on the auto-filler allows the level to get low enough before it engages to then re-fill at that 2.77GPM rate, but I've never tested that to confirm. I thought about buying a dedicated meter to keep track of evaporation, but then abandoned that idea because it'd be about an $80 expense, and I'd have to dig up my line a second time to plumb it in. I figured if I needed to know that bad, I could just do what I recommend to others, and use the city's meter for a few random days throughout the summer months to calculate what a typical hot day uses up. But I'm too lazy for that. It is what it is and knowing what it is wouldn't lower the water bill any!! It's a fixed expense, nothing to be done about it (because I don't cover my pool and wouldn't want to). Part of me doesn't want to know!
- May 23, 2015
- 25,740
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Dirk,
No need for meters or digging up plumbing. Just set up a Class A evaporation pan near your pool and determine evaporation that way.
https://www.kean.edu/~csmart/Hydrology/Lectures/Evaporation_pan.pdf
As long as your pool doesn’t leak water, the pan will tell you all you need to know about evaporation rates.
No need for meters or digging up plumbing. Just set up a Class A evaporation pan near your pool and determine evaporation that way.
https://www.kean.edu/~csmart/Hydrology/Lectures/Evaporation_pan.pdf
As long as your pool doesn’t leak water, the pan will tell you all you need to know about evaporation rates.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,679
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Well, as you know, that pan's evaporation rate would not match my pool's, and the pool's rate is easy enough to measure. It's the surface area that is the problem for calculating the volume of loss, as my pool has a difficult shape to measure. But thanks anyway.
No, and might have?
I had purchased four similar models (ones that didn't have to lay horizontal) for a re-plumbing job on a four plex. I wanted to split the city's metering for each unit. (The city wanted $20K EACH for that!!) So I didn't bother too much about accuracy. Truth be told, I didn't even think to look into it, I just assumed it, and as it turns out I didn't need to: I use them to calculate what percentage of the city's meter to charge each tenant, so inaccuracy isn't really an issue. It's close enough for what I'm using them for.
Anywho, I just happened to be doing that project, so had the meters laying around, right when the pool was getting remodeled. I attached one to a garden hose and filled my pool with it. Much higher rate than .25GPM, so my volume number should be good. (Confirmed with testing and dosing.)
I really like having a good number, so I started "selling" the idea here (buying a meter and putting it on a hose), and selected the model I shared with you as "good enough" for this purpose, pretty much the cheapest Flows sells. But there have not been many takers. I later refined the idea to make use of a house's built in water meter, with tips about how to compensate for in-house use while the pool was being filled. That idea got some traction here because it's free! Not that I invented the concept, I'm sure others figured it out, too, well before I did. I just started sharing the idea for new builds and remodels, especially with free-form shapes, because they are really difficult to calculate based on dimensions.
According to this datasheet:
http://s144276.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/poolmiser_ins_sheet.pdf
my autofill can deliver 4000 gallons in 24 hours, so that's 2.77GPM. But it's not clear if that spec means it would deliver water at that rate for each "mini-fill" or if the nature of auto-filling, little sips as the water dips, would mean it would mess with a water meter's accuracy.
I seem to notice that my water level drops by as much as about 1/2". That says to me that the float on the auto-filler allows the level to get low enough before it engages to then re-fill at that 2.77GPM rate, but I've never tested that to confirm. I thought about buying a dedicated meter to keep track of evaporation, but then abandoned that idea because it'd be about an $80 expense, and I'd have to dig up my line a second time to plumb it in. I figured if I needed to know that bad, I could just do what I recommend to others, and use the city's meter for a few random days throughout the summer months to calculate what a typical hot day uses up. But I'm too lazy for that. It is what it is and knowing what it is wouldn't lower the water bill any!! It's a fixed expense, nothing to be done about it (because I don't cover my pool and wouldn't want to). Part of me doesn't want to know!
Thanks Dirk... All good info to know. 20K for a water meter? Yikes...
If I don't hear back from the engineer at Kobold, I'll give a call back and see what info I can extract from him and then go from there.
Thanks again and take care...