I am in the process of having a vinyl liner inground pool installed. The walls are up and it is now backfilled, so the electrician came today to do my bonding loop for me. What he did was attach the loop to 4 equal distant points along the perimeter of the pool. Three problems with this though, instead of leaving a 2 or 3 foot space between the walls the the loop, he ran it around the pool so that it hugs the walls, there is no gap between the walls and the loop, the 8 awg wire is touching the entire way around. The second issue is that he drove an 8' ground rod into my yard and connected the loop to that as well. This rod is NOT connected to the ground in my subpanel so i think I may be fine with this. Last, he only left 1 2 foot section of wire off of the main loop to tie into my rebar that will be in my concrete. Can anyone help with these questions, it just does not seem correct to me, but he did say he contacted the inspector first to ensure that it would pass.
Bonding Loop Question
- Thread starter mjdieth
- Start date
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,153
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Where will your pump, heater, and SWG be bonded to the loop?
From Pool School - Bonding vs Grounding :
Bonding a pool typically involves running a thick copper wire all the way around the pool, and connecting it to everything metal within five feet of the water, to all electrical devices that touch the water, to any concrete within three feet of the water, and to the water it's self. If there are any voltage differences between any of those things, the bonding wire will short them out, forcing them to all be at the same voltage.
Notes
Bonding never involves driving ground rods into the earth. Ground rods are only used for grounding the main electrical panel, and any sub-panels that are separate from the house.
From Pool School - Bonding vs Grounding :
Bonding a pool typically involves running a thick copper wire all the way around the pool, and connecting it to everything metal within five feet of the water, to all electrical devices that touch the water, to any concrete within three feet of the water, and to the water it's self. If there are any voltage differences between any of those things, the bonding wire will short them out, forcing them to all be at the same voltage.
Notes
Bonding never involves driving ground rods into the earth. Ground rods are only used for grounding the main electrical panel, and any sub-panels that are separate from the house.
Call your city inspection office and try to talk to an inspector. Contact information is probably on your permit.
Touching the walls isn't an issue, but it doesn't fulfill all the requirements. You absolutely need rebar in your deck and it needs to be part of the bonding grid.
The fact that the electrician added the ground rod indicates he does not understand 680.26. Don't let the builder pour concrete until you have this resolved.
Touching the walls isn't an issue, but it doesn't fulfill all the requirements. You absolutely need rebar in your deck and it needs to be part of the bonding grid.
The fact that the electrician added the ground rod indicates he does not understand 680.26. Don't let the builder pour concrete until you have this resolved.
This is my problem, the city has told me to use the electricians inspector, there is no information on the permit. The reason I questioned it being wrapped around the pool and touching the walls is because the requirements state to have the loop 18-24" from the walls, not directly against them then entire way around. There will be 1/2 rebar in a 2x2 grid throughout the concrete, and the electrician left 1 tail to tie into that, but not 4.
680.26 states that Equipotential bonding is not required to extend to or be attached to any panelboard, service equipment, or grounding electrode, it only states that it is not required, but nothing about not being able to tie it to a ground rod.
Agreed, but you can and probably should add another wire without messing with what is there. I did my own and connected to every single panel. With self drilling screws it was easy.
Right, but his adding the rod probably points out he doesn't understand the concept or the code. The second rod can actually cause stray voltage issues in some situations.
Unfortunately if your local authorities won't enforce code, you may be on your own.
Did he include wire for things like ladder anchors, railing anchors, diving boards, slides etc.?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,153
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I came across this vendors brochure that gives a good overview of bonding. —> https://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent//burndy/documentation/BURNDY_Pool_and_Spa_Brochure.pdf
No mention is made of grounding rods.
No mention is made of grounding rods.
To be clear, this rod is placed in the middle of my yard and not connected to any service panel or sub panel, the bonding wire is connected to it, that is all. He did include the bonding for everything else, it is a continuous loop with a plate in the skimmer, around the entire pool, over to the heater, pump, and swg. I guess if the loop does not need to be 24" away from the inside walls then I'm fine in that regard.
JohnT - in practice how is the ground rod different from any of the other metallic elements it connected to the shared #8?
This is a very bizarre approach & proximity can play a role- I don’t understand why a rod was used, but if it’s bonded what are the liabilities, increased by proximity of other sources of strays or net zero because it is bonded?
Basically by driving a rod and connecting it to the bond grid he is effectively bonding the soil around the rod he drove. Not being connected to the house ground is good and should not cause any problems. I suspect, as others have, that he and the inspector are confused as to what grounding and bonding do.
Dan
Dan
Thanks for all the responses, it's good to know that there is no issue that was caused with the rod since it stands along in the yard with only the bonding wire connected to it. I will have the electrician connect a couple more leads from the loop for the rebar so I have more than 1 connection. I took some pictures to send to the inspector to see if the loop against the entire wall of the pool is fine.
IF ground is ground then all is ok. But in many cases it is not. There can be a difference in potential between 2 ground rods as mentioned above by JohnT. A bird can sit on 50,000 volts and no problem, so can we actually. IF that is the only thing you touch. These codes have changed over and over again here in Canada and makes we wonder who provides input to do so. Any electrician knows that 2 ground rods over a certain distance apart "CAN" have a measurable voltage between them. This is because of the potentials in the earth. Trick is to have everything at the same potential as in having everything holding hands ( bonding ) You can touch the hot black wire in your house and if you are at the same potential, no shock. Touch a wet surface that is at a dif potential, aka ground and you will get a little buzz. Add salt and get a bigger buzz. Go direct and touch ground and you get a larger buzz because our skin is not a perfect insulator like dry rubber shoes are. This is why we need just one potential around anything where voltages are. My vote is for one potential and the only way to do such is to have everything bonded all as ONE. Which would mean ONE only ground and ALL bonded ( tied to ) that one common point. Where the code makers got off line was when they figured once your grounded, all is Bonded, not true. Trick is to not have anything metallic that can be touched not in the bond loop.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,153
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Basic objective is that a human should never become the path of least resistance between two voltages. The bonding loop provides a path for any electrons in the area to flow to equalize.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I have some highly technical screenroom experience (a metal box room that allows no signals in or out) and worked on some experiments that required extremely low electrical noise environments. Proper bonding and grounding of electrical and conductive components was critical to the experiments success or failure. Ground loops, ie, unintentionally constructed electrical pathways, can act as a huge antenna picking up all kinds of stray voltages. This would be particularly true in an open environment like a home or residence which is surrounded by noisy power transmission lines. A large enough closed loop circuit can act as an enormous inductor with the remote possibility that the induced currents on the ground line could cause problems with GFI/AFI circuits.
So, while none of that experience directly bears on pool construction, there is a “best practices” approach to problems and, in this instance, best practices indicates that a home should have only ONE ground point ... at the main electrical service panel. All ground connections (green wires) should flow back to that ground point and the only point where neutral and ground are connected should be in the service panel. A bonding loop has nothing to do with grounding, it’s simply a connection to make sure everything that is in the loop is at the same potential. Adding a ground rod to that loop does not change the fact that the loop is necessary or works any better or worse.
If it were me, I’d rip the ground rod out, make sure that the #8 wire is securely clamped & fastened to the pool frame (ie, NOT just touching it) and I’d run a bunch of extra pigtails out around the pool....#8 bare Cu wire is cheap, ripping up a deck to redo the wiring is not....
So, while none of that experience directly bears on pool construction, there is a “best practices” approach to problems and, in this instance, best practices indicates that a home should have only ONE ground point ... at the main electrical service panel. All ground connections (green wires) should flow back to that ground point and the only point where neutral and ground are connected should be in the service panel. A bonding loop has nothing to do with grounding, it’s simply a connection to make sure everything that is in the loop is at the same potential. Adding a ground rod to that loop does not change the fact that the loop is necessary or works any better or worse.
If it were me, I’d rip the ground rod out, make sure that the #8 wire is securely clamped & fastened to the pool frame (ie, NOT just touching it) and I’d run a bunch of extra pigtails out around the pool....#8 bare Cu wire is cheap, ripping up a deck to redo the wiring is not....
I can rip the ground rod out (it's 8 ft deep, might be tough) after the inspector signs off, I have no problem doing that. Also, the #8 wire is securely clamped to the pool frame using brass bonding lugs, it is just tightly wrapped around the pool. What I mean by this is that there are not 4 pigtails connected to the frame that then connect to a loop that is 24" away from the walls, the loop is actually connected to the walls with zero distance between it and the pool. An analogy I will use is a rubber band wrapped around a cup, it is bolted but also touching. There is also just 1 pigtail right now to connect to the rebar in the deck. I can run 3 more of those if you feel that is better.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
But, if your decking has rebar in it and the bonding wire is connected to that, then you’re likely within code. Having the copper loop extend out like that would be necessary if there was nothing but bare soil and grass around the pool. You’d want a person standing there, who could put their hand in the water, to have the bonding system in close proximity. So I really think you’ll be fine as is.
Of course, if you want to, you make your own loop. It just needs to be securely fastened to the pigtails.
Well that is good news then, it seems the only thing I have left to do is to remove the grounding rod as the loop is continuous and does go over to the equipment pad to connect everything. One question though, trying to learn; why in Canada does code state to have the ground rod like I currently do, is there really any safety reason to remove it? You state that there can be a difference in potential between 2 ground rods, how far away would they need to be for this to exist, I assume in Canada there has to be a reason for wanting this extra rod?