Experts needed - pool deck level and pitch

[grumpiebk]

I'm looking for some builder or pool expert opinions and advice before stroking our final checks for our build.

As you can see in my build thread (in my signature) we recently just completed the decking phase of our project. We did travertine pavers and it is beautiful. But I have two concerns/qualms about the work:

First the patio is probably about 4-6" lower than our prior sod level. It is easily noticeable since we have a zero lot line and my neighbors yard is immediately on the other side of or aluminum fence. This is a concern of mine primarily from a drainage issue (run off from the neighbors yard and from our existing landscape).

Second, the patio seems to be pitched steep enough that it is noticeable to the eye. We did a covered patio addition on our house that extends 16' from the house. They pitched the deck under the patio down away from the house and towards a deck drain just outside the covered patio. Then they pitched away from the pool (another 15 feet away) down to the the same deck drain. This creates somewhat of a valley look due to the opposite pitches leading to the drain. And when looking out of our living room at the pool, the pitch is noticeable (increasing in height away from the covered patio). Perhaps the opposite pitches make it more noticeable. I'm not sure why we would have a pitch under a covered patio? Maybe it will be less noticeable once the pool is filled?

How normal are these situations? I acknowledge that I am very picky and have high expectations, so I am probably noticing these things much more than other people. But I want to make sure this isn't an issue when we are spending close to $100k with both projects. When I asked PB, he said that the level of the deck was dictated by the top of the gunite shell and didn't seem concerned with the height difference. As for the pitch, the response was that is how they do all patios where there are drainage concerns and that the pitches are within code.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

[grumpiebk]

Here are some pics. I'll try to get more specific ones tomorrow as these were just general shots.

From living room - it seems like the pool ramps upwards:

This is the zero lot line. Hard to tell from this angle:

Here is the grade line before the deck went down where you can see the difference:

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[woodyp]

How many feet of decking do you have from the edge of the pool to the zero lot line/drainage ditch? And how is that drainage ditch/trench gonna be finished? That looks like a lot of slope for stuff to drain back into your pool from that side.

 

[kimkats]

If you were to let a marble go by the pool how fast will it roll down that slope? At least you know no run off will going into the pool!

That side part by the fence-------------what is going in there to keep it from washing out? I see the downspout going to it. I also worry about the dirt/sand being pulled out from under all of that pretty stone decking.

I have a "call" into our concrete guy. I bet he knows the "rules" about slope and will be able to tell you how to measure it.

Kim

 

[grumpiebk]

How many feet of decking do you have from the edge of the pool to the zero lot line/drainage ditch? And how is that drainage ditch/trench gonna be finished? That looks like a lot of slope for stuff to drain back into your pool from that side.

There is 13' of decking from pool edge to the drainage ditch. We are required by HOA to maintain 2' wide landscape privacy barrier on our ZLL, so hedges and likely rock will be going in that space. We have been looking at having a flex drain run underground from the downspout of the gutter our to behind our yard. That area pitches back to the deck drain. My bigger concern was dirt and landscape runoff onto the deck on that side. Do you think that may actually run into the pool? They did pitch it away from the pool on that 13' of decking as well. So away from the pool and down to the deck drain.


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[grumpiebk]

If you were to let a marble go by the pool how fast will it roll down that slope? At least you know no run off will going into the pool!

That side part by the fence-------------what is going in there to keep it from washing out? I see the downspout going to it. I also worry about the dirt/sand being pulled out from under all of that pretty stone decking.

I have a "call" into our concrete guy. I bet he knows the "rules" about slope and will be able to tell you how to measure it.

Kim

Kim, was the marble question serious? Or joking? If serious I can do a test in the morning.

See my prior response about the downspout and the zero lot line.

I don't have any concern about runoff into the pool. I am actually afraid that they over pitched the deck to ensure no runoff. It is more of an aesthetic concern. Hopefully someone can answer whether or not this is normal and necessary or if I should be raising this as a real issue.

 

[JamesW]

Looks off. However, it's hard to tell from pictures. Might be worthwhile getting a survey and opinion from an independent contractor.

Doesn't need to be a pool contractor. It can be anyone in a relevant field that can survey elevations and evaluate.

Concrete person, engineering firm, construction, foundation repair etc.

If you had a big rain, what do you think would happen? Puddling etc?

 

[grumpiebk]

Looks off. However, it's hard to tell from pictures. Might be worthwhile getting a survey and opinion from an independent contractor.

Doesn't need to be a pool contractor. It can be anyone in a relevant field that can survey elevations and evaluate.

Concrete person, engineering firm, construction, foundation repair etc.

If you had a big rain, what do you think would happen? Puddling etc?

Thanks James. I guess I was more questioning is that normal practice, to pitch away from pool and then pitch away from house with a covered patio. I've been to hundreds of homes with pools and I've never noticed a patio pitch.

If we had a big rain, which we will, I'm concerned my deck drain will overflow. But candidly, my concern is more aesthetics. We've made quite an investment in our home and it just looks odd to me. Wanted to see if others agreed before I start making it a big deal.


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[Just-a-PB]

Its not concrete, its a permeable paver. But the general rule of thumb is 1/8" of fall.
Because of your slope they set the pool slightly higher then a flat backyard would of been.
They could of stepped up to your pool, but don't think that is what you wanted.
I would of designed the pool at the right height, and had the decking around the back slightly raised to accommodate the grade.
As long as water coming off neighbors property flows around the pool you should be ok. If not install a underground drain to accomplish this.
At this point a little retention wall seems in order.
Biggest thing is that water runs away from the pool, and away from the house.
Looks like they accomplished that.

 

[captjoemcd]

For what its worth, the pitch as you show it (away from both pool and covered patio) is exactly how mine is - valley in the middle, and there's a right angle since my pool wraps around my patio. The deck drain does fill up and puddle in a big rain, but fortunately we don't have lots of those where we live.

 

[grumpiebk]

Its not concrete, its a permeable paver. But the general rule of thumb is 1/8" of fall.
Because of your slope they set the pool slightly higher then a flat backyard would of been.
They could of stepped up to your pool, but don't think that is what you wanted.
I would of designed the pool at the right height, and had the decking around the back slightly raised to accommodate the grade.
As long as water coming off neighbors property flows around the pool you should be ok. If not install a underground drain to accomplish this.
At this point a little retention wall seems in order.
Biggest thing is that water runs away from the pool, and away from the house.
Looks like they accomplished that.

Thanks. One thing about your post specifically caught my attention. Our yard never had a slope prior to the dig. Or at least it was never noticeable, it was a flat yard.

As for the covered patio, should the pavers be pitched underneath it too?


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[Foosman]

Thanks. One thing about your post specifically caught my attention. Our yard never had a slope prior to the dig. Or at least it was never noticeable, it was a flat yard.

As for the covered patio, should the pavers be pitched underneath it too?


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Yes, that is common practice. You do not want a patio with too little pitch or flat or all the rain will dump into your pool or patio. I have a friend with this problem and it's a nightmare when it rains, his pool floods and chemical balance gets way off.


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[kimkats]

I wish I could be there to see it in real life AND walk it.

The marble question was joking....my way of saying "that looks like a steep angle". The marble would show you just how steep.

Do this for me. Walk along that area and see if it is trip hazard. It looks like it is a nice smooth transition so should be fine.

We can see it now BUT when you have the grass in, furniture on it, friends in the pool, drinks in hand, etc no one will notice it.

I think they were making sure no water could get into the house or the pool. One thing you will have to think about is what to put there on the dirt/grass to keep it from washing out when it does rain as there is going to be a little stream there.

That ZLL drain-I WOULD push it underground to make sure there are no problems with it. Better to do it now before you buy and plant anything.

in the end you are going to have a wonderful back yard..........the getting there may cause a few sleepless nights though

Kim

 

[bmoreswim]

As mentioned above, there must be a "V" to the two areas with the drain in between. There is no other way to do it. Is the slope slightly more than needed? Better a little too much than too little (flooding & improper drainage). Is the drain too small? Time will tell. But that's a different issue than is it reasonably sloped. The drain is probably fine so long as the exit never gets blocked (or the drain itself) which is likely a far more common problem years later.

 

[Pool Tool]

Just to add on, Just-a-PB's note of 1/8" fall is 1/8" of vertical drop over a 1 foot horizontal span, i.e. over a 8' run of patio your pavers should drop only 1" total (1/8" per foot * 8' = 1"). This generally enough slope to move water in the proper direction and is pretty much negligible to the eye.

 

[grumpiebk]

Here are a couple of shots from this morning. Also, I revisited MayorHanah's build which is very similar. Her pitch is also noticeable. Not sure it is as bad, but noticeable as well. Perhaps I'm just over analyzing. From pool edge to deck drain is about 16', so at a 1/8" pitch, the height difference would be 2". Maybe that's what I am picking up on.

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[kimkats]

With those pictures it looks just fine and dandy! slight slope to help with water run off. No trip hazards or such.....time to move on!

Kim

 

[needsajet]

Agree with prior answers, especially how little anyone will notice once there's furniture and activity. I'll just add that getting the water off pavers quickly reduces the slip hazard as much, or more, than anything else. Outdoor covered patios are sloped because wind drives the rain into the patio.

Looking at picture no. 3 and no. 4, it looks like there's a localized fault. Just to the left of the drain, the pavers come up too fast. Maybe a beginner did the screeding in that area. To the right, they almost appear lower than the drain, but maybe that's an illusion.

Easy to test though... just simulate a nice heavy rain. Take your garden hose and use a broken spray pointed up. Wander around and see if it all drains properly and the way you want it to: away from the house and away from the pool, without leaving puddles.

If you want to know the numbers, get a nice straight piece of wood 6' to 12' long to use as a straight-edge, and a spirit level. Put the level on top of your straight-edge, and shim the low end up until the level reads level (reverse the level once to make sure the level is OK) and measure the gap from the bottom of the straight-edge to the paver at the low end. Less than 1/8" per foot might not drain as quick as you'd like; more than 1/4" you might feel, but will drain fast and completely if some of the surface is uneven. Whether you feel it or not will depend on how brilliant you are at reading putts

 

[grumpiebk]

Agree with prior answers, especially how little anyone will notice once there's furniture and activity. I'll just add that getting the water off pavers quickly reduces the slip hazard as much, or more, than anything else. Outdoor covered patios are sloped because wind drives the rain into the patio.

Looking at picture no. 3 and no. 4, it looks like there's a localized fault. Just to the left of the drain, the pavers come up too fast. Maybe a beginner did the screeding in that area. To the right, they almost appear lower than the drain, but maybe that's an illusion.

Easy to test though... just simulate a nice heavy rain. Take your garden hose and use a broken spray pointed up. Wander around and see if it all drains properly and the way you want it to: away from the house and away from the pool, without leaving puddles.

If you want to know the numbers, get a nice straight piece of wood 6' to 12' long to use as a straight-edge, and a spirit level. Put the level on top of your straight-edge, and shim the low end up until the level reads level (reverse the level once to make sure the level is OK) and measure the gap from the bottom of the straight-edge to the paver at the low end. Less than 1/8" per foot might not drain as quick as you'd like; more than 1/4" you might feel, but will drain fast and completely if some of the surface is uneven. Whether you feel it or not will depend on how brilliant you are at reading putts

Thanks for the insight! It sounds like it is normal, I just wasnt expecting to notice the pitch which caused my concern. I may play around with those tests this weekend for additional self assurance.


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[jkg3000]

Ran into the same thing on my patio. I could see the pitch more than I expected to.


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