Conflicting Info on Shelf Depth and Bubbler Effectiveness

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grumpiebk

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Jun 22, 2016
906
FL
Our dig is Thursday and one last issue to work through with our PB is shelf depth. We would like it 9" deep (water depth) but are being told our 3 bubblers will be ineffective at that depth and that 6" is the preferred water depth. There are many members on this forum who have no other water features besides bubblers being run on a single pool vs pump who can control the height of their bubblers +/- 2 feet. Our bubblers are standard 1.5" bubblers.

What can we do to get the depth we'd like while still maintaining effectiveness of the bubblers? Add a valve actuator? Dedicate a second pump? Change the plumbing?

Any help is greatly appreciated as our shelf is very large (8x12) so we'd like to get it the depth we want without sacrificing our only water feature. Thanks!
 
I do not know much about bubblers, but in my mind they might have nozzles similar to spa jets that could be made smaller to put a higher velocity (and thus height) on the water that is bubbling.

You need to have the ability to control how much water is diverted to the bubblers so you can have control. I would think that most pumps with all the water going to the 3 bubblers should be able to get over 9" of water depth.
 
I'm thinking there could be a million factors go into this - my pool information is in my signature, but I have a single bubbler on a ledge that averages about 7 inches of water depth, it will create a fountain above the water level of 3 to 4 inches on pump speed of about 2500 RPM's and the top sprays running, if I turn the top sprays off it will be an inch or so higher. I'm running a single VS pump with Pentair automation. At the pump I have 4 distinct water paths back to the pool. The first is the main return line - feeds 5 jets into the pool, the second is the normal spa daily circulation (spa has spillway into pool). The third runs the bubbler and the fourth runs two top sprays. What I think is critical and I did is to have them all separate and all have a valve so they can all be controlled. I added actuators and can turn the bubbler and top sprays on and off independently of anything else with the automation. I think this is likely possible with any of the vendors, but when I turn the bubbler or top sprays on - I turn the speed of the pump up. The pump runs about 2000 RPM's for normal pool circulation and if I turn either of or both of the other features on, then the automation turns the pump up to about 2500 RPM's.

As far as plumping - they ran the same size pipe as all other returns to the pool and it was finished the same way. The PB put a standard 1/2" eyeball outlet on the bubbler pointing straight up.

Here is a picture of the valves - you can see at the top left - the diverter for spa/pool operation. In pool mode the 4 return valves are in play. The first return is the 5 jets in the pool, next is the top sprays, third is bubbler and the last is the spa circulation and spillway. The actuators are on the bubbler and top spray. I plan on adding an actuator to the spa/spillway return as well next spring. With this set up you can control how much water goes where you want it. You can also change the eyeball on the bubbler perhaps or as others mentioned it - could even add a piece of pipe to bring the eyeball closer to the top of the water line. Some of those may be options for you or not depending on what you want to see.

Valves:
DEAA280B-8063-47C0-AAE8-6BD7B2B306BC_zps2irxxq8h.jpg


Bubbler On - 7 inches of water:
702D1BDF-6777-4495-92C5-DED2F1108B4B_zpsy736lf4v.jpg


Bubbler Off - water is causing distortion, but it is a standard 1/2 eyeball pointing up:
11678E43-A08B-4409-885D-8013FA73DEC2_zps3jpoukfd.jpg
 
Thanks, GDN. I appreciate the detail. But candidly, I was hoping to get much more height than that, whether it be 6" or 9" of water. Twinkies bubblers are exactly what we are looking for. She has her standard bubblers with a standalone 1.5hp pump with her waterfall. I'll see if I can post a pic without any copyright infringement ;)


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Sure - glad to help if possible just showing you what I get out of a single VS pump situation. To those that love the water sound and want the higher features and splashing sounds, I'm all good with that, but honestly - those drive me crazy most of the time, I prefer more quiet - so I rarely run the bubbler or the top sprays and I keep the return to the spa turned down so that the waterfall doesn't cause as much water noise either. I would have been more happy with sheer decent water features as they make much less noise.
 
***start hijack***

GDN, I think you would be a good candidate for that CMP bubbler nozzle. I originally was going to use a return nozzle like you have, but the raised nature of the nozzle felt like it would be a tripping hazard for the baby. The ones I purchased are like $5 each, sit flush and probably work just as good as a return nozlzle.

***end hijack***

I think grumpiebk is looking for a fountain water feature. I'd imagine I would get a fountain if I cutoff the flow from the waterfall. Might try it out of curiosity.
 
Killer, if your pushing through 12" of water and still get 2-3" or so, I imagine that would work for me for 6" or 9" of water. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't setting myself up for something I couldn't modify at a later point, for example if low pressure was primarily a result of plumbing, etc.


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here is a pic of twinkies' bubblers. Standard bubblers with a dedicated 1.5hp pump for spa and bubblers. This is the effect I am looking for, and am willing to compromise a few inches of height if it means getting the additional water depth.

 
Those are some serious bubblers - mine won't do anything like that, I'm thinking dedicated pump. Killer95Stang - thanks for the point on the CMP products. For less than $10 it would be nice to have it level with the floor and not raised up.
 

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That is my pool above. Brian was accurate when he described it. I have a feature pump that is for my 3 sheers, and 3 bubblers. I just took these at night so they aren't the best pics but they'll show what I have.
This is what my bubblers nozzles look like. This is what they look like in 9" of water with the flow going 50/50 to water falls and bubblers. Please excuse the one on the right. My kids were stepping on them and I didn't feel like stepping into the cold water to fix it so it's a little cockeyed. Lol This is a picture of my plumbing. And another picture of my bubblers when I turn the flow all the way to the left to direct it to the bubblers.


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To put it in another perspective, this picture is of my 7 year old son in the bubblers. They are nearly as tall as my kids when they are on full flow.

My PB was hesitant with the depth also and thought we might need these little tubes to put in them to raise the height of the fountain but... needless to say... we didn't need that at all.


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Thanks again for the pics and info. I'd be happy with half that height. But from what my PB is telling me and some pics I've seen here of other shelfs at 9", and even 6", bubblers are barely getting above the water. I'm going to share some pics (without your son;) with my PB to clarify what we are looking for and what our expectations are, regardless of the depth and pump combos.


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I also don't have any other water features, so a standalone pump would be solely for our bubblers. But maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing at the deeper depth we desire.


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So I spent a couple minutes experimenting outside with the bubblers. I turned the flow entirely over to the bubblers and pushed the go button. Instantly I got about 15" to 18" fountains of water, with an occasional splash out to the deck. I checked the nameplate on my Pentair water feature pump and came up with 011515, which is a full rated 2hp whisperflow pump. In all honesty, way overkill for two bubblers and probably bogging down from having to push all that water through 1-1/2" piping.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7qv2Nn6Yis
 
Hi Brian,

For the pic below, I split water flow between my spa overflow and the bubblers. The Jandy Epump 1.5hp was running at 2750 rpm's (max is 3450). 2'' piping running to the bubblers. My shelf is in 6'' of water and at this speed I'm able to get the bubblers 2ft above the water line. I can't see how this config wouldn't work in a 9'' shelf. Having 3 bubblers may need a bit more water flow, so you may have to sacrifice the spillover from the spa.

20161117_133352_1.jpg


Here is a pic of my valves. Two bubblers are on the left hand side. Opposite end (with check valve) is the spa return.

DSC_0027.jpg
 
Thanks Alex and Killer, very helpful. Alex, your plumbing and pool setup is very similar to mine, so it does seem like I can get the result I am looking for while having a 9" deep shelf. I wouldnt even mind completely cutting off the spa overflow if it meant getting the combo I am looking for with the bubbler feature.

Curious to anyone on this thread who knows - if it doesnt work out the way I hoped with solely our pool pump, is it possible to move the bubblers onto its own pump at a later point in time? or is that a big, expensive plumbing headache? I dont know if my PB really doesnt know if it will work or if he is just being lazy to avoid the change, but my guess is the latter based on recent experience. I am hoping I didnt miss my window to push on the 9" shelf.
 
Other options, you can do the telescoping kind, but a little more money, but depth doesn't matter.
Other cheap option is to use a venturi jet. Take the 3/4" airline and run it inside the wall and 90 it back towards the pool right under the coping. Or run them to a close by planter, or make a little deck box. Many options to hide the air line.
Cut it flush with tile, and you get some great air pulled in to give you way more power with less pressure.
 
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