Sub Panel

[akenis]

Electrician replaced sub panel. Feed comes in from the rear. 2 hots and ground run out lower left to timer box. Hot, neutral and ground go out bottom for a 115V outlet. Issues:

1. 30 Amp dual pole breaker on left doesn't have a connecting bar. I've never seen one like this. I googled and some said it doesn't matter, the tripping occurs internally?

2. Grounds and neutrals are combined on ground bar. Wouldn't I have partial load going back to main panel on my ground wire? The bus bar is connected to my enclosure, so my enclosure is connected to Neutral. Thinking I should just take the 2 neutrals off the ground bar and use wire nut?

 

[1poolman1]

Neutral and ground should only be on the same bus in the main panel. You have the "floating" neutral bar In a sub-panel there should also be a ground bar attached to the cabinet. being connected that way, if there is ever a problem anything connected to the ground, like a motor casing, can become energized and dangerous.
OK to have two separate breakers for 240V application, though a double-pole one is better (two breakers connected).
If that 30A breaker is for a pump, it should be a GFCI. Also, why 30A?
You can get an Eaton BRHT handle to attach to the breakers to tie the handles together (see picture), or take a piece of 12ga. wire and run it through the holes in the breakers. Put a bend on each end and they are connected. Even with the handle or wire, though one breaker tripping should pull the other with it, it doesn't always happen. Home Depot usually has the Eaton handle.

Ground bar, also available at Home Depot:

 

[ajw22]

If the dual 30 amp breakers feed a pool pump current code requires a GFCI CB for pool pumps.

Was that electrician licensed or a handyman? He seems to not be familiar with the NEC requirements for pools and subpanels.

Electrical GFCI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[akenis]

Neutral and ground should only be on the same bus in the main panel. You have the "floating" neutral bar In a sub-panel there should also be a ground bar attached to the cabinet. being connected that way, if there is ever a problem anything connected to the ground, like a motor casing, can become energized and dangerous.
OK to have two separate breakers for 240V application, though a double-pole one is better (two breakers connected).
If that 30A breaker is for a pump, it should be a GFCI. Also, why 30A?
You can get an Eaton BRHT handle to attach to the breakers to tie the handles together (see picture), or take a piece of 12ga. wire and run it through the holes in the breakers. Put a bend on each end and they are connected. Even with the handle or wire, though one breaker tripping should pull the other with it, it doesn't always happen. Home Depot usually has the Eaton handle.

Ground bar, also available at Home Depot:

Thanks...

Is it a floating neutral? Look at the green screw on top right. To me it looks like it is bonded to the cabinet. It looks like that lug could be removed to make it a floating bus.

It's a Siemens Type Q 2 pole breaker, not two separate breakers. Don't know if the handle tie came off at some point or if it was made this way. From what I read, the purpose of a handle tie is a visual representation and for manually disconnecting both hots at the same time. The handle tie does not ensure that one leg will trip the other, as this is accomplished internally, but only if the breaker is labeled "Common Trip." So I guess the question becomes, should I have a common trip breaker?

Or as you said, a GFCI. The load on the 230V side is to a timer that runs a Pentair Pump and Jandy SWG (13 + 2 Amps). Not sure what kind of breaker feeds this panel from the main panel inside. Before this panel, I just had wires connected with wire nuts.

I could leave the grounds on the bonded bus, and then just connect the 2 neutrals together with wire nut. Then I'd have a floating neutral separate from the grounds.

 

[wireform]

Is it a floating neutral? Look at the green screw on top right. To me it looks like it is bonded to the cabinet. It looks like that lug could be removed to make it a floating bus.

Correct, by removing it woud make the neutral floating and then use that green screw for ground.

 

[akenis]

If the dual 30 amp breakers feed a pool pump current code requires a GFCI CB for pool pumps.

Was that electrician licensed or a handyman? He seems to not be familiar with the NEC requirements for pools and subpanels.

Electrical GFCI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Not sure of his current qualifications. He only does work for family and friends now.

Maybe there is a GFCI upstream at the main panel. Don't think so. Yes, this panel gives power to a Pentair pump and Jandy SWG through a timer. I also have a new 50 A panel for new heat pump. Interesting from your link, that doesn't require GFCI.

 

[KevMo]

It is unsafe and against NEC code to have a 240V circuit protected by 2 independent (non-tied) breakers. The NEC code does allow "identified" ties (listing not required) for line to line loads. The way iI read it, it is not allowed if devices on the circuit also have line to nuetral (e.g. 120V) loads. In that case double pole breakers are required. Breakers are deigned to trip even if if the handle is held in place Wiring them together with a wire does not ensure the other would trip in the case of overcurrent detection. If you need a common trip on all ungrounded connectors you should replace those two breakers with a proper double pole breaker. In either case they must be GFCI breakers.

As pointed out earlier, the grounda and neutrals must be separated on a subpanel. The current setup is unsafe. Ground and neutrals are only bonded at the panel that has the service entrance. You need to have a ground bar attached to the subpanel and land all ground wires on it. You also need to remove the green bonding screw on the neutral bar as shown in the picture below.

An experienced licensed electrician should not make mistakes like these.

 

[akenis]

It is unsafe and against NEC code to have a 240V circuit protected by 2 independent (non-tied) breakers. The NEC code does allow "identified" ties (listing not required) for line to line loads. The way iI read it, it is not allowed if devices on the circuit also have line to nuetral (e.g. 120V) loads. In that case double pole breakers are required. Breakers are deigned to trip even if if the handle is held in place Wiring them together with a wire does not ensure the other would trip in the case of overcurrent detection. If you need a common trip on all ungrounded connectors you should replace those two breakers with a proper double pole breaker. In either case they must be GFCI breakers.

As pointed out earlier, the grounda and neutrals must be separated on a subpanel. The current setup is unsafe. Ground and neutrals are only bonded at the panel that has the service entrance. You need to have a ground bar attached to the subpanel and land all ground wires on it. You also need to remove the green bonding screw on the neutral bar as shown in the picture below.

An experienced licensed electrician should not make mistakes like these.

View attachment 520845

Zoom in. It is a 2 pole 30 Amp breaker. The handle tie is missing. From what I read, 2 pole breakers are common trip by default. If not, they must be labeled "independent trip."

The bus bar can be modified as you point out. I think I should leave it bonded (leave the screw in) and use it as a ground bar. Then remove the 2 neutrals and just connect them together with wire nut. Then I have neutrals and grounds separated, and a properly grounded enclosure.

 

[KevMo]

Zoom in. It is a 2 pole 30 Amp breaker. The handle tie is missing. From what I read, 2 pole breakers are common trip by default. If not, they must be labeled "independent trip."

The bus bar can be modified as you point out. I think I should leave it bonded (leave the screw in) and use it as a ground bar. Then remove the 2 neutrals and just connect them together with wire nut. Then I have neutrals and grounds separated, and a properly grounded enclosure.

Oh, they looked like two separate breakers since they were not tied together.

 

[akenis]

Oh, they looked like two separate breakers since they were not tied together.

Thanks for all the help. So the plan now is to buy a new GFCI since that's NEC. Will remove the lug connecting the panel bar to enclosure and use that as a neutral bar. Need it for the GFCI anyway. Then add another bar directly to enclosure for the grounds.

 

[akenis]

Well Lowes had the bar and a GFCI, so I thought I'd sleep better being compliant. But going back to Lowes to get a regular 20 amp breaker. I've had 3 nuisance trips already. Don't want to come back from a trip to a green pool. Saw an add from local company. They said they use the best...Siemens GFCI which trip less, but they still trip.

 

[ajw22]

Well Lowes had the bar and a GFCI, so I thought I'd sleep better being compliant. But going back to Lowes to get a regular 20 amp breaker. I've had 3 nuisance trips already. Don't want to come back from a trip to a green pool. Saw an add from local company. They said they use the best...Siemens GFCI which trip less, but they still trip.

Electrical GFCI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Harmonics from the variable frequency drive pumps can cause false GFCI trips. Pentair PA220GF is a 20A 240V GFCI breaker that GFCI trips at 6ma. The PA220GF is supposed to be less sensitive to false GCFI trips from VS pumps.

The PA220GF is a relabeled Siemens CB (QF220AP). Siemens added additional shielding to help resist false trips. Some say Pentair may have additional quality control and selects breakers less susceptible to false GFCI trips.

 

[akenis]

Electrical GFCI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Harmonics from the variable frequency drive pumps can cause false GFCI trips. Pentair PA220GF is a 20A 240V GFCI breaker that GFCI trips at 6ma. The PA220GF is supposed to be less sensitive to false GCFI trips from VS pumps.

The PA220GF is a relabeled Siemens CB (QF220AP). Siemens added additional shielding to help resist false trips. Some say Pentair may have additional quality control and selects breakers less susceptible to false GFCI trips.

Cool! See pretty good reviews on Amazon. Home Depot also. The add I saw said they still trip, just less frequently! If I was home every night or needed an inspection I'd definitely go for it.

 

[1poolman1]

Well Lowes had the bar and a GFCI, so I thought I'd sleep better being compliant. But going back to Lowes to get a regular 20 amp breaker. I've had 3 nuisance trips already. Don't want to come back from a trip to a green pool. Saw an add from local company. They said they use the best...Siemens GFCI which trip less, but they still trip.

View attachment 521455

Nice work. If you have a Pentair VSP, you must use the Siemans or he tripping will make you crazy. What else is on that circuit? Looks like two "hots" on one terminal of the timeclock. Can't see the rest. Trying to split the load of a GFCI will cause tripping as well.

 

[ajw22]

Cool! See pretty good reviews on Amazon. Home Depot also. The add I saw said they still trip, just less frequently! If I was home every night or needed an inspection I'd definitely go for it.

I have yet to hear here of a false trip on a Pentair or Siemens GFCI pump breaker.

 

[Ahultin]

You said the swg is on the pump circuit, Is the swg wired 120 or 240?