Pool builder didn’t install any skimmers - what to do?

[Carey2023]

Well we had a pool installed this summer and I have learned a lot from this website. Things to worry about, things not to worry about, chemistry and some really beautiful pools. I wasn’t expecting to ever put up a post but here I am. I’m going to try an keep this simple but I’m looking for a little impartial advice.

He had an authorized pool builder install a Leisure Pools Precision 23 this summer. This is what Leisure Pools calls a specialty pool with their patent pending high water system. It has 2 openings along the deep end of the pool that lead to what LP calls weirs and then the skimmer units are installed at the back wall of the weirs so that the water level can be maintained about 5 to 20mm below the coping. Here‘s a link to a youtube video that gives a pretty thorough overview.

So our pool builder wasn’t familiar with this style of pool and instead on installing skimmers simply put intake drains at the bottom of the weirs (picture attached). As you can imagine, this doesn’t work very much like a skimmer. When the pool was finally completed, we were told to insert the vacuum hose directly into the intake line and start cleaning. No basket to catch debris, no plate to seat the hose and not a lot of suction.

We realized pretty quickly that something was wrong here and asked him why we didn’t have any skimmers. His initial response was that Leisure Pools didn’t provide the skimmer kits. Subsequently, he said that he had called Leisure Pools but they never called him back. He then told us he was having custom baskets made for the “weirs” which didn‘t fit so we’re still waiting on those. He provided a leaf catcher for the vacuum hose which takes that big, cumbersome, pain in the butt hose and makes it even more big, cumbersome and pain in the butt. It has already dropped off the hose twice on me while cleaning.

The situation cannot be easily rectified. The pool runs from the house to the back fence and due to the slope of the yard, there’s about 18 inches of concrete along the back of the pool where the skimmers should go. So we’re pretty uncomfortable with the idea of breaking that out and try to install skimmers especially since the back of the pool has already settled about 1/2 inch. In addition, the video explains that the wall drains should be connected to the skimmer to prevent the skimmer from running dry. Since the opening to the weir is about 2 inches high (give or take) there is only about 1.5 inches of water flowing over it when full. This means that the water level in the pool cannot drop more that 1.5 inches without the drains at the bottom of the “weirs” running dry since there are no skimmers or floats or safety valves.

We don’t feel that we should pay full price for this deficiency. The pool builder has offered a $1300 discount but this seems pretty low for missing a critical, patent pending element that requires us to now manually skim the pool quite frequently and could cause the pump to start sucking air if the water level drops even a little. We are talking to a legal representative this week but I would really appreciate some honest opinions. My husband and I are a bit ticked off about this and we may be responding too emotionally. I’d also love to hear what amount of compensation would seem appropriate? Should we take the $1300 and let it go or considering that this is a lifetime impact for us, should we ask for more?

 

[Dirk]

I don't actually know what is acceptable, but one end of your pool dropping a half inch is worrisome. We'll ask one of our experts about that. You need to keep an eye on that, because missing skimmers might be the least of your troubles.

If Leisure Pools sells a pool that can run without skimmers, like what you got is somehow a normal installation, then that's a sticking point. Otherwise, your pool was not installed correctly and if it were me, I would expect the builder to make that right, even if it meant a major renovation, or a partial re-do of the pool. I cannot conceive of the extra work involved maintaining an outdoor pool that doesn't skim. So before I lead you off a cliff, the first step is to contact Leisure Pools and get your facts straight.

- Does Leisure Pools require any sort of certification by the builder to install their pools?
- Do they offer a model that has no skimmers?
- If not, why weren't skimmers provided?
- Does the pool come with installation instructions? And if so, does it describe the skimmers, and how they are to be installed?

I'd start there.

@Newdude, do we have a qualified builder hanging around that could weigh in about the issue of the pool settling, what is acceptable, what is a red flag? Or one that knows Leisure Pools, and can describe if and how they can work without skimmers?

 

[newdude]

@Newdude, do we have a qualified builder hanging around that could weigh in about the issue of the pool settling, what is acceptable, what is a red flag?

@AQUA~HOLICS and @MAPR-Austin may have thoughts, but i believe they both lean towards plaster.

@ajw22 and @JamesW would be my 2 in house choices to either weigh in or further redirect.

Also Carey, Welcome !!!

Unless Leisure Pools sells a pool that can run without skimmers, like that's somehow a normal installation, then that's a rub. Otherwise, your pool was not installed correctly and if it were me, I would expect the builder to make that right, even if it meant a major renovation, or a partial re-do of the pool. So before I lead you off a cliff, the first step is to contact Leisure Pools and get your facts straight.

+1. * If * the builder made a critical error, I wouldn't listen to one word of how hard it might be for them to fix it. But make sure your ammo is good before you take aim.

 

[JamesW]

Get them to come back and do it correctly.

 

[ajw22]

The builder should suck it up and give you the pool you contracted for. The fix is not easy and will require breaking up the concrete and getting into the back wall to install the skimmers.

Is your back wall shaped with the deep weirs the way the video shows?



Did the builder cut the floor of the weir to install their suction system? I think that will be the big issue in replacing it with the skimmers on the wall.



It will take a bunch of work to repair the hole in the floor of the weir and install the skimmers. The backside of that wall will need to be excavated and opened up to do all the work.

I don't think there is any way to put a dollar value on what you should be compensated to accept your Frankenpool. I also don't know what Consumer Protection Laws you have in Canada.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Amount of compensation = the cost to have the deficiencies brought up to contract standards by a third party, if this is the route you end up taking.

 

[Dirk]

You're seeing a consensus form. At this point in time, you shouldn't be thinking in terms of how much money you should accept to compensate for a deficient pool you'll have to suffer with for the rest of your lives. You should first be demanding that the pool be made right, either by the original builder, or by a third party. Here in many states you have to give the builder the opportunity to make things right, before you go seeking third-party solutions. As I said, you should check in with Leisure Pools to get their take first, so that you have a good handle on what the pool is supposed to be. Then you can start the process of dealing with the builder.

Also, here in CA, if you owe anything on the pool, you would not have to pay up until the dispute is settled. Don't give him any more money for now.

 

[kimkats]

In to watch and learn on this one. You have already had some good thoughts and possible ways to go.

 

[Carey2023]

Thanks so much for the great responses, I’m going to try and provide some additional info but honestly it’s so stunning that the pool builder just left out the skimmers because he didn’t know where they were supposed to go that it can be hard to describe.

Does Leisure Pools require any sort of certification by the builder to install their pools?
- Do they offer a model that has no skimmers?
- If not, why weren't skimmers provided?
- Does the pool come with installation instructions? And if so, does it describe the skimmers, and how they are to be installed?

We did talk briefly with the Leisure Pools Canada person but he said little more than, yes, you can have a pool without a skimmer and it wouldn’t void the warranty. He did know our pool builder so I assume that my guy is ”authorized” whatever that means. These are excellent questions and we will ask Leisure Pools for this information.

We paid an independent pool builder to come and take a look at the pool once we realized that there were no skimmers. Based on what he could see of the finished product, he thought the construction was pretty good/solid and the equipment was topnotch. Although he is the one who noticed that the pool was 1/2 inch lower at the deep end. We asked if he could provide an estimate to install the skimmers and he said that he wouldn’t do it at any price. It’s hard to see so I’ll add a picture of the whole pool to give an idea of what it looks like at the back but because the pool rises out of the ground towards the deep end, there’s granular backfill around the pool until grade and then we have approximately 24 inches wide by 18 inches high massive pour of concrete along the back. Basically everything from the edge of the coping stone to the outside edge of the concrete and down is one monolithic chunk of concrete. He also installed sonotubes around the pool and rebar that is tied to the fibreglass shell and extends into the concrete decking. To remove it would almost certainly damage the pool and quite possibly cause even more subsidence. Also, there is only 5ft between the inside face of the pool and the fence so large equipment would be a problem. Basically as annoying as it is to not have any skimmers, we are going to have to live with it.

The back wall does have the deep weirs or chambers as they are formed as part of the fibreglass shell but there are no openings along the back wall where the video shows the skimmers. Instead, he put 1.5 inch pipe in the bottom of the chambers on both sides. There are also two wall drains below the weir openings but they are just above the bottom of the pool and not located in the middle like in the video. So yes, fixing the deep weirs and re-plumbing the skimmers in would be a highly skilled bit of work and I wouldn’t trust this guy to do it even if he offered. The wall drains have one shutoff back at the pump and the weirs each have their own shutoff so I assume that they are plumbed separately. We can shutoff the weirs and keep the wall drains functioning if we’re worried about the pool water level dropping but then we reduce the very limited amount of skimming that the weirs do to nothing so it’s a bit of a catch22.

I‘m encouraged by the fact that no one has said, hey this is no big deal and maybe you should just learn to live with it. We have a meeting with a lawyer tomorrow so I’ll update with how that went. Thanks again for all the great information.

 

[ajw22]

It all starts with what you contract with your Builder says.

Does the contract state it will include two skimmers?

Does the contract reference any Leisure Pool materials that show the skimmers?

Did the Builder deliver what is stated in your contract?

Much depends how these disputes are handled in Canadian law that most of us here are unfamiliar with.

 

[JamesW]

Even if the contract does not specify skimmers, the pool has to function properly.

The customer cannot know about these things and it is the responsibility of the builder to do things right.

If the builder balks at doing the modifications, you might need to get an expert to do an analysis and certify that the design does not suit the purpose.

The manufacturer should be able to verify the the current design is not sufficient.

 

[kul]

Sorry you’re going through this. I hope you’re able to get it sorted so you can have the pool you paid for. Welcome to TFP.

 

[Dirk]

Random thoughts...

Both Allen and James offer interesting points of view. Your lawyer can advise. Allen points out that your builder could claim that if the contract doesn't state there are to be two skimmers, then he's not liable for them now. James counters that typical construction contracts don't always specify every single detail, it's more general, as in: "We're going to install a pool," with the implication that pool will function as pools typically function. For example, no pool contract is going to specifically state that the pool will be water tight. It doesn't need to. That's an industry standard, and if the pool leaks you wouldn't have to prove that it's not supposed to. It may be up to some judge at some point to decide if a consumer can assume a new pool will be able to skim itself. You get the idea.

To one of your points: just because the pool manufacturer stated that the pool's warranty is not affected by the lack of skimmers is not the same thing as them stating their pools come with skimmers and they don't sell them without skimmers. That would be an important distinction to determine liability.

I cannot picture well enough what you are describing regarding the weir doors and the plumbing. I have no familiarity with that type of pool. I understand the bit about the thick concrete retaining structure and the challenges of installing skimmers into it now. I'm not surprised a third party contractor wouldn't touch this job. He'd be liable for the entire pool. I also understand the notion about not wanting your builder to tackle this. I had a similar problem with a pool contractor and didn't want him to fix the problem he created. So I get it. That said:

Perhaps some contractor could figure a way to get you a skimmer that doesn't involve the back of the pool at all. You don't need two, and it doesn't need to be on that back wall. It could be almost anywhere in the pool. You wouldn't necessarily have to dig up that giant chunk of concrete. If one of the side walls could be penetrated, and a skimmer opening properly sealed to the fiberglass, then you could have a skimmer and just abandon whatever is going on in the back. Installing a skimmer on a side wall could be a relatively simple job compared to trying to fix the back.

There are also robotic skimmers that can drive themselves around the surface of your pool. That could be a viable solution, or at least one that would help with the skimming. I think they are solar. We have threads about them around here somewhere.

Point being: there is more than one way to skin this cat.

 

[Dirk]

I just now watched the video. I should have before. What'cha got here is a case of gross incompetence. Your pool is "new tech" but it's quite obvious that under no circumstances was it to be installed without skimmers. Your builder perhaps thought that the catch basins were the skimmers, but that will never hold up in any court. No way. He charged you to install a pool he knew nothing about. I'd say you have him by the short hairs.

Now the stress involved might not be worth it to you for him to make this right, that's up to you, but there's no way the contract will help him get out of this, whether it states skimmers or not. Allen's perspective was from typical pool construction, where the number and placement of skimmers is unique to each pool and so is generally specified. But that's not your pool. Your pool was specifically designed to be installed with the factory skimmers. The analogy is not like buying a car and not getting the type of wheels you thought you were getting, it's more like ordering a car and it showing up without any wheels at all, and no axels to even bolt them to!!

The existing basins in your pool will never function as skimmers, even with these fantasy baskets your builder is talking about. A skimmer needs to be of a certain shape and depth, and more importantly there needs to be a weir door. Without the flappy door, the skimming won't work right. If he shows up with baskets, he's just hoping you won't know the difference. And $1300? I don't know the exchange rate, but it can't be that far off. That is a slap in the face. Start with 10x that and go up from there.

OK, that all said, my previous post probably still could stand. Maybe a skimmer could be added elsewhere. Though it may not allow the high level that the pool was designed for. The manufacturer might be able to advise about that.

It's a very unfortunate business. It's really incredible that your builder missed the skimmers. It's as if he never built any pool before. One look at the catch basins and it would have been obvious to even an inexperienced pool builder that those weren't the skimmers. Sorry, I don't mean to rub it in, it's just that unfathomable.

 

[Bperry]

Thanks so much for the great responses, I’m going to try and provide some additional info but honestly it’s so stunning that the pool builder just left out the skimmers because he didn’t know where they were supposed to go that it can be hard to describe.

Does Leisure Pools require any sort of certification by the builder to install their pools?
- Do they offer a model that has no skimmers?
- If not, why weren't skimmers provided?
- Does the pool come with installation instructions? And if so, does it describe the skimmers, and how they are to be installed?

We did talk briefly with the Leisure Pools Canada person but he said little more than, yes, you can have a pool without a skimmer and it wouldn’t void the warranty. He did know our pool builder so I assume that my guy is ”authorized” whatever that means. These are excellent questions and we will ask Leisure Pools for this information.

We paid an independent pool builder to come and take a look at the pool once we realized that there were no skimmers. Based on what he could see of the finished product, he thought the construction was pretty good/solid and the equipment was topnotch. Although he is the one who noticed that the pool was 1/2 inch lower at the deep end. We asked if he could provide an estimate to install the skimmers and he said that he wouldn’t do it at any price. It’s hard to see so I’ll add a picture of the whole pool to give an idea of what it looks like at the back but because the pool rises out of the ground towards the deep end, there’s granular backfill around the pool until grade and then we have approximately 24 inches wide by 18 inches high massive pour of concrete along the back. Basically everything from the edge of the coping stone to the outside edge of the concrete and down is one monolithic chunk of concrete. He also installed sonotubes around the pool and rebar that is tied to the fibreglass shell and extends into the concrete decking. To remove it would almost certainly damage the pool and quite possibly cause even more subsidence. Also, there is only 5ft between the inside face of the pool and the fence so large equipment would be a problem. Basically as annoying as it is to not have any skimmers, we are going to have to live with it.

The back wall does have the deep weirs or chambers as they are formed as part of the fibreglass shell but there are no openings along the back wall where the video shows the skimmers. Instead, he put 1.5 inch pipe in the bottom of the chambers on both sides. There are also two wall drains below the weir openings but they are just above the bottom of the pool and not located in the middle like in the video. So yes, fixing the deep weirs and re-plumbing the skimmers in would be a highly skilled bit of work and I wouldn’t trust this guy to do it even if he offered. The wall drains have one shutoff back at the pump and the weirs each have their own shutoff so I assume that they are plumbed separately. We can shutoff the weirs and keep the wall drains functioning if we’re worried about the pool water level dropping but then we reduce the very limited amount of skimming that the weirs do to nothing so it’s a bit of a catch22.

I‘m encouraged by the fact that no one has said, hey this is no big deal and maybe you should just learn to live with it. We have a meeting with a lawyer tomorrow so I’ll update with how that went. Thanks again for all the great information.

They make jackhammers and lots of hand held equipment that can remove the giant concrete thing. It’s not impossible but it won’t be fun for the builder to do. You don’t need heavy equipment.

I’d either ask for a complete refund or have him hire someone to demo what needs to be demo’d and install the right skimmers and put it back together.

I have two skimmers and wish I had three because I still have to hand skim during fall. One side of the pool has settled about an inch so I also know how un-fun it is to manage water levels to such a short specific range. Get the pool fixed to operate the way it was designed. Easier said than done, I know.

 

[JamesW]

Note that any concrete that needs to be removed where the concrete is touching the fiberglass needs to have a lot of relief saw cuts so that the jackhammer does not crack the fiberglass.

 

[JamesW]

ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 (R2022) American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools

This standard applies to permanently installed residential inground swimming pools intended for noncommercial use as a swimming pool by not more than three owner families and their guests and exceeding 24 in. (61 cm) in water depth. EXCEPTION: Separate ponds, fountains, decorative water...

issuu.com

ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 (R2022) American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools

 

[Carey2023]

Again, great information and opinions, I will definitely relay some of this information to the lawyer. I agree with Dirk that both Allen and James have interesting and somewhat opposing viewpoints which helps me get a bigger perspective on the problem. Especially the contract issue that doesn’t mention skimmers (which it doesn’t), the builder might very well try to use this to defend his actions.

I really like the car analogy but I might change it up a little. Instead of no wheels, I’d go with no windshield wipers and missing the electrical and mechanical components to install them. They’re never actually mentioned in a purchase contract but not having them severely impacts how and when you can use your car. Even better would be that the car dealer let you drive off the lot without them and when you come back after the first rain hands you a long squeege and says your good to go.

We did purchase a solar-powered robotic skimmer which worked very well for the 2 months the pool was open. So far so good, but Amazon reviews suggest that you’re lucky to get 2 years of operation out of the units and right now they’re going for about $800 CDN. This would be a pretty steep ongoing maintenance cost if I assume the pool will survive for 25+ years. It doesn’t really help me with my very sensitive water level (cannot drop more than 1.5 inches) or the stagnant water that builds up in those weirs if I turn the intake lines off. I already had a little algae develop in there when I did it for a week in September so I’d hate to see what would happen in July.

The ANSI information is very interesting. I’m not sure if we have anything similar in Canada or Ontario but I‘m going to do a bit of a search and see. From what I can tell based on our approval process, most pool construction is regulated at the municipal level and they are primarily concerned with grading/fencing. Not sure if our building codes mention pools at all but I’m going to check.

I’m not really looking for legal advice but I would be interested if anyone has had a similar situation and how they dealt with it. I agree with Dirk that this pool is specifically designed around these weirs/skimmers. The schematic that I posted is from Leisure Pools and directly mentions the dual weirs/hidden skimmers so I’m hoping that would move the needle more in our direction but you never know with legal actions. I’ll be honest, if the lawyer isn’t strongly confident that we have a good case, then I’m inclined to pay and move on. I’m 60 years old and I paid a lot of money to have the pool of my dreams and fighting with this guy for two years or more just isn‘t worth my time and energy. Money is one thing but I could never get that time back so we’ll see.

Just a side note on the builder, he has been building pools for at least 15 years probably longer. He’s known for custom vinyl work that typically involves water features, fire pits, custom kitchens and his facebook page shows some absolutely gorgeous work adjacent to golf courses, etc. I think our basic fibreglass pool with a concrete deck just didn‘t hold much interest for him and, therefore, he didn’t give it much thought. Not so much incompetence as indifferent neglect.

The meeting with the lawyer is Wednesday so I’ll provide a bit of an update just in case anyone in the future has a similar issue. I’m still completely up in the air about costing. Just like windshield wipers, skimmers aren’t an expensive component when compared with the entire pool but they sure do make running the pool a lot easier. As to having them retrofitted, both my husband and I can’t really contemplate breaking out that concrete and plumbing in two skimmers (or even one). It might go fine but the concrete repair would never match existing and there’s a real possibility of damage to the pool shell. However, we‘ve only had the pool open for 2 months. It’s quite possible that after a year or two of all the extra work involved in maintaining this pool, we might decide that it‘s worth the risk which is another reason that we’d like some compensation. The builder referred to this as “hypothetical costs” in his response to our request for compensation so I don’t think he’s willing to take responsibility for his mistake.

 

[Bperry]

Again, great information and opinions, I will definitely relay some of this information to the lawyer. I agree with Dirk that both Allen and James have interesting and somewhat opposing viewpoints which helps me get a bigger perspective on the problem. Especially the contract issue that doesn’t mention skimmers (which it doesn’t), the builder might very well try to use this to defend his actions.

I really like the car analogy but I might change it up a little. Instead of no wheels, I’d go with no windshield wipers and missing the electrical and mechanical components to install them. They’re never actually mentioned in a purchase contract but not having them severely impacts how and when you can use your car. Even better would be that the car dealer let you drive off the lot without them and when you come back after the first rain hands you a long squeege and says your good to go.

We did purchase a solar-powered robotic skimmer which worked very well for the 2 months the pool was open. So far so good, but Amazon reviews suggest that you’re lucky to get 2 years of operation out of the units and right now they’re going for about $800 CDN. This would be a pretty steep ongoing maintenance cost if I assume the pool will survive for 25+ years. It doesn’t really help me with my very sensitive water level (cannot drop more than 1.5 inches) or the stagnant water that builds up in those weirs if I turn the intake lines off. I already had a little algae develop in there when I did it for a week in September so I’d hate to see what would happen in July.

The ANSI information is very interesting. I’m not sure if we have anything similar in Canada or Ontario but I‘m going to do a bit of a search and see. From what I can tell based on our approval process, most pool construction is regulated at the municipal level and they are primarily concerned with grading/fencing. Not sure if our building codes mention pools at all but I’m going to check.

I’m not really looking for legal advice but I would be interested if anyone has had a similar situation and how they dealt with it. I agree with Dirk that this pool is specifically designed around these weirs/skimmers. The schematic that I posted is from Leisure Pools and directly mentions the dual weirs/hidden skimmers so I’m hoping that would move the needle more in our direction but you never know with legal actions. I’ll be honest, if the lawyer isn’t strongly confident that we have a good case, then I’m inclined to pay and move on. I’m 60 years old and I paid a lot of money to have the pool of my dreams and fighting with this guy for two years or more just isn‘t worth my time and energy. Money is one thing but I could never get that time back so we’ll see.

Just a side note on the builder, he has been building pools for at least 15 years probably longer. He’s known for custom vinyl work that typically involves water features, fire pits, custom kitchens and his facebook page shows some absolutely gorgeous work adjacent to golf courses, etc. I think our basic fibreglass pool with a concrete deck just didn‘t hold much interest for him and, therefore, he didn’t give it much thought. Not so much incompetence as indifferent neglect.

The meeting with the lawyer is Wednesday so I’ll provide a bit of an update just in case anyone in the future has a similar issue. I’m still completely up in the air about costing. Just like windshield wipers, skimmers aren’t an expensive component when compared with the entire pool but they sure do make running the pool a lot easier. As to having them retrofitted, both my husband and I can’t really contemplate breaking out that concrete and plumbing in two skimmers (or even one). It might go fine but the concrete repair would never match existing and there’s a real possibility of damage to the pool shell. However, we‘ve only had the pool open for 2 months. It’s quite possible that after a year or two of all the extra work involved in maintaining this pool, we might decide that it‘s worth the risk which is another reason that we’d like some compensation. The builder referred to this as “hypothetical costs” in his response to our request for compensation so I don’t think he’s willing to take responsibility for his mistake.

For reference, putting in the 2 skimmers that were supposed to be there will cost a lot more than $1300. There are also plenty of ways to get concrete to match or at least not be noticeable.

 

[newdude]

I do agree with the builder that installing skimmer(s) is a hypothetical cost until you pull that trigger.

Many times a builder will offer to refinish a pool for particularly bad applications, or compensation. The compensation is always a fraction of what it would cost them to replaster.

I get it. Most would take the money and run, costing them the full amount either way. Instead they offer you the smallest amount they think you might take to let them off the hook.