Pool builder didn’t install any skimmers - what to do?

[Carey2023]

Absolutely, I can even appreciate the builder‘s perspective here. Why offer us any substantial compensation on the first go round. It’s just not in their interests.

Just a bit more info, we do have a final payment to make which is in the neighbourhood of $10,000. We‘ve told the builder we’re not paying until we talk to a lawyer and have received no further communication from them. We’re not the kind of people to walk away from an obligation so if the lawyer says the case is weak or we should pay them anyway then we will. My understanding is that if we decide to go to small claims, we can pay the amount owing to the court and then it will either be released or paid based on the judgement so at the very least, we wouldn‘t have to try and chase them around to get money.

My husband and I were talking and sort of came to the realization that if we had wanted a high water level pool without skimmers then we could have bought any fibreglass pool. It is the skimmers that really determine the water level and a regular fibeglass shell without the weirs would have been a lot easier to manage. No drains, no stagnant water in a warm, dark, airless chamber, no cutouts on the coping, etc. The reason for purchasing this pool was to have a high water level with skimmers so we’ve very fundamentally not gotten what we paid for.

 

[ajw22]

I would make the Builder go to court and tell the story to a judge if he wants the $10,000. You can only hope the judge owns a pool.

I once let an architect take me to small claims court since he did more then the agreed scope of work and billed me for all the work he did. The work was divided into phases and a phase was not to be done until the prior phase was accepted. It was all documented in many pages of back and forth emails between me and him that showed I was not happy with what he did and did not approve doing more detailed drawings.

What was interesting is I had to present little beyond the emails. The judge questioned him as to what he did and why and he basically talked himself into losing his case.

Let the builder explain to the judge why he did not install skimmers. Your evidence is the Leisure Pool documents and videos all clearly showing the skimmers you feel you contracted for.

 

[DavidLast]

It's been a while now. However, I would contact the manufacturer in New Zealand, not the local office. Based on my knowledge of the New Zealand mindset ask them what solutions they may suggest. They may have a workaround.

If they don't have a solution or suggestion, then I would insist on the skimmers being fitted.

Did I understand correctly the pool is out of level? Fiberglass pools do not like being twisted or unsupported. It would be worth shooting level across each corner and seeing how far it is out.

 

[JamesW]

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[DavidLast]

Sorry another question. The main concerns are:

- No skimmer so cant easily vacuum
-Difference in level

Is that every concern in single sentences?

 

[Dirk]

Sorry another question. The main concerns are:

- No skimmer so cant easily vacuum
-Difference in level

Is that every concern in single sentences?

I can add to that list.

- There may be an issue with the subsurface intakes, which are suppose to kick in if the water drops below the weir openings.
- As is, there are open suction ports within a small arm's reach of the deck. That's a potentially dangerous hazard that needs to be made safe somehow.
- The basins are potentially algae manufacturing plants, depending on how the plumbing is configured. Or snake pits!

IMO, this is more than just about skimming.

 

[DavidLast]

I can add to that list.

- There may be an issue with the subsurface intakes, which are suppose to kick in if the water drops below the weir openings.
- As is, there are open suction ports within a small arm's reach of the deck. That's a potentially dangerous hazard that needs to be made safe somehow.
- The basins are potentially algae manufacturing plants, depending on how the plumbing is configured. Or snake pits!

IMO, this is more than just about skimming.

Thanks I was considering these. I am just wondering what the OP thought. I have half an idea on a possible fix. But wanted to hear all the issues in simple terms. I may be thinking wrong, but I built a solution to a pond in a building with a similar, but different issue.

 

[Carey2023]

Thanks, Allen. I too hope if we end up in court that the judge owns a pool. I’ve also thought the same thing, that it would be interesting to see him explain why he simply didn’t install any skimmers in court. When I asked him if his pool had skimmers, he said ”of course, they‘re important“ without any self awareness of what he’d done to our pool.

Contacting the New Zealand branch might be a good idea and, you’re right, they may have some type of solution or work around. At the very least, they might recommend someone to do the work since there is no way I‘m letting my pool builder break out the back end of this pool. Considering that one of the biggest risks is damage to the pool shell, Leisure Pools might be the only ones willing to try and fix it. We‘ve only talked to them once and it was a brief and not very informative conversation. Right now, I think we’re mostly trying to burying our heads in the sand and hope that it isn‘t that bad in the long run. I think Dirk used the work unfathomable and that pretty much sums up how we feel.

I guess the main concerns are:

1. Without the skimmer units at the back of the weirs, there is effectively no skimming of surface water in the pool. They do draw in a bit of debris but not much more than a bucket lying on it’s side, halfway submerged in the water would.

2. My husband rigged up some plastic hose fittings to help improve the seal in the weir drains. With the wall drains shutoff, one of the weir drains shutoff and the pump on high, I can achieve just enough suction to keep the vacuum head from floating off the bottom of the pool. I need to use a leaf catcher which is added to the end of vacuum hose to catch debris before it is sucked into the pump filter. This seems to introduce some air into the pump for reasons that I can‘t quite figure out since it is filled with water before the vacuuming starts. Also, I have to lean out into the pool and pick the leaf catcher up by the handle because it will fall off the hose and drop back into the pool if I try to pull it out by the hose. So it is doable but I have to go pretty slowly to make sure that the vacuum actually sucks up the dirt/debris and doesn‘t just blow it around.

3. The pool is designed to provide a high water level with skimmers. Here’s a bit of a description for a Leisure Pools website:

The Precision™ offers our patent pending High Water Line design, which includes the incorporation of dual weirs and hidden skimmer boxes that allow the Precision™ to be nearly filled with water and yet still skim debris off the water surface. Once paved, the Precision™, with its innovative dual weirs, completely hides your skimmer boxes offering a unique look and feel. Any debris on your water surface magically disappears into the weirs.

We have basically the worst of both worlds. A pool without skimmers but with these pretty much useless weirs that will start sucking significant amounts of air into the pump if the water level drops more than 1.5 inches below the coping. However, if we turn off the drains that the pool builder mistakenly put in the bottom of the weirs, then they will hold somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6 to 8 gallons of stagnant water in a warm, dark incubator that will flow back into the pool if anyone makes any waves while swimming.

4. The pool has settled but we’re not sure this is a significant issue. The builder did put sonotubes around the pool (two at each corner, two along the long sides and one along the short sides.). When the concrete surround was poured around the pool it also filled these sonotubes which extended down to the base of the pool. We‘re not sure if the pool actually settled or if it might have been a bit off level right from the start (It was installed 5 inches above the design specifications but that‘s a whole other story). We’ll be keeping an eye on it to see if the pool sinks any further. It was backfilled with granular material and there is a standpipe which in the two months of operation was completely dry. We‘re not planning to bring this up in any complaint against the pool builder unless the lawyer recommends throwing everything we can at him.

Sorry for the long winded response but it is a bit difficult to explain this situation. It’s one of the things that concerns me about going to court. Will we be able to convey how genuinely weird and unfathomable it is that our pool builder failed to install skimmers in this particular pool that was specifically designed to have skimmers. Most of the issues are inconveniences, although significant ones, but not critical failures.

I notice that most people recommend that we try and get this fixed and have the skimmers installed. We haven’t even broached this with our pool builder because, frankly, I would prefer never to see him again and I‘m not sure we’d be able to get anyone else to even contemplate it. We could contact Leisure Pools but because they weren’t involved in the install I don‘t know if they’d feel any obligation to try and rectify this situation. I did notice the contact information above so it probably wouldn‘t hurt to ask. It’s possible that the lawyer might be able to provide some recommendations on how to approach Leisure Pools. I would like something in writing from them confirming that this will not impact the warranty so that might be a starting point.

 

[Carey2023]

OMG snake pits! I’m not even going to consider that one.

I have thought of maybe just filling the weirs in with concrete but I’m concerned about how that might impact the pool circulation. It would leave only the two wall drains that are almost at the bottom of the pool which is about 5ft deep. It’s not a huge pool at about 10 x 20 so would this be enough? I‘d also have to invest in a vacuum system that was independent of the pool pump but it might be worth it especially if these weirs become a safety or hygene issue. We would have to run the pool for at least one full season before making a decision like this just to see how the weirs perform. They are hard to clean too. If the hose is plugged into one, then I can fish the open end of the hose into the other and clean out any dirt or debris but because the opening is narrow and the hose is sticking out the middle, I can’t really get the open end into the weir that I’m using to vacuum. Again not a critical problem but a bit of a pain.

 

[DavidLast]

My understanding is the weir runs across the width of the pool at one end. The weir consists of a slot in the wall and the water flows over the slot into a gutter across the width of the pool. The gutter is deep enough to take a conventional skimmer and the water level in the pool is dictated by the weir and the water level in the gutter is dictated by the skimmer box. Assuming normal set up.

The pool builder claims the skimmer boxes were not supplied and has installed the pool without them.

Looking at the photos and the diagrams I am assuming instead of fitting the skimmers the vacuum side of the pump has been hard plumbed to the 2 inch connections in the bottom of the gutter. In section this looks something like:

Can you confirm this is the arrangement?

The weir effectively runs near full width of the pool?

May I get measurements (if possible in millimetres) of the gutter?

May I get measurements from bottom of the gutter when the pump is running to the water level?

In case, could you confirm for me the number of persons anticipated to be in the pool at one time?

Is there any automatic water filler on the pool?

Sorry I think in metric so it may be easier for my mind in metric.

Thanks

 

[Bperry]

Thanks, Allen. I too hope if we end up in court that the judge owns a pool. I’ve also thought the same thing, that it would be interesting to see him explain why he simply didn’t install any skimmers in court. When I asked him if his pool had skimmers, he said ”of course, they‘re important“ without any self awareness of what he’d done to our pool.

Contacting the New Zealand branch might be a good idea and, you’re right, they may have some type of solution or work around. At the very least, they might recommend someone to do the work since there is no way I‘m letting my pool builder break out the back end of this pool. Considering that one of the biggest risks is damage to the pool shell, Leisure Pools might be the only ones willing to try and fix it. We‘ve only talked to them once and it was a brief and not very informative conversation. Right now, I think we’re mostly trying to burying our heads in the sand and hope that it isn‘t that bad in the long run. I think Dirk used the work unfathomable and that pretty much sums up how we feel.

I guess the main concerns are:

1. Without the skimmer units at the back of the weirs, there is effectively no skimming of surface water in the pool. They do draw in a bit of debris but not much more than a bucket lying on it’s side, halfway submerged in the water would.

2. My husband rigged up some plastic hose fittings to help improve the seal in the weir drains. With the wall drains shutoff, one of the weir drains shutoff and the pump on high, I can achieve just enough suction to keep the vacuum head from floating off the bottom of the pool. I need to use a leaf catcher which is added to the end of vacuum hose to catch debris before it is sucked into the pump filter. This seems to introduce some air into the pump for reasons that I can‘t quite figure out since it is filled with water before the vacuuming starts. Also, I have to lean out into the pool and pick the leaf catcher up by the handle because it will fall off the hose and drop back into the pool if I try to pull it out by the hose. So it is doable but I have to go pretty slowly to make sure that the vacuum actually sucks up the dirt/debris and doesn‘t just blow it around.

3. The pool is designed to provide a high water level with skimmers. Here’s a bit of a description for a Leisure Pools website:

The Precision™ offers our patent pending High Water Line design, which includes the incorporation of dual weirs and hidden skimmer boxes that allow the Precision™ to be nearly filled with water and yet still skim debris off the water surface. Once paved, the Precision™, with its innovative dual weirs, completely hides your skimmer boxes offering a unique look and feel. Any debris on your water surface magically disappears into the weirs.

We have basically the worst of both worlds. A pool without skimmers but with these pretty much useless weirs that will start sucking significant amounts of air into the pump if the water level drops more than 1.5 inches below the coping. However, if we turn off the drains that the pool builder mistakenly put in the bottom of the weirs, then they will hold somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6 to 8 gallons of stagnant water in a warm, dark incubator that will flow back into the pool if anyone makes any waves while swimming.

4. The pool has settled but we’re not sure this is a significant issue. The builder did put sonotubes around the pool (two at each corner, two along the long sides and one along the short sides.). When the concrete surround was poured around the pool it also filled these sonotubes which extended down to the base of the pool. We‘re not sure if the pool actually settled or if it might have been a bit off level right from the start (It was installed 5 inches above the design specifications but that‘s a whole other story). We’ll be keeping an eye on it to see if the pool sinks any further. It was backfilled with granular material and there is a standpipe which in the two months of operation was completely dry. We‘re not planning to bring this up in any complaint against the pool builder unless the lawyer recommends throwing everything we can at him.

Sorry for the long winded response but it is a bit difficult to explain this situation. It’s one of the things that concerns me about going to court. Will we be able to convey how genuinely weird and unfathomable it is that our pool builder failed to install skimmers in this particular pool that was specifically designed to have skimmers. Most of the issues are inconveniences, although significant ones, but not critical failures.

I notice that most people recommend that we try and get this fixed and have the skimmers installed. We haven’t even broached this with our pool builder because, frankly, I would prefer never to see him again and I‘m not sure we’d be able to get anyone else to even contemplate it. We could contact Leisure Pools but because they weren’t involved in the install I don‘t know if they’d feel any obligation to try and rectify this situation. I did notice the contact information above so it probably wouldn‘t hurt to ask. It’s possible that the lawyer might be able to provide some recommendations on how to approach Leisure Pools. I would like something in writing from them confirming that this will not impact the warranty so that might be a starting point.

There’s no way I’d let that final payment check go to the builder until it’s fixed correctly.

 

[Newdude]

In looking at the video again, I noticed something new. The first time with my own post build PTSD going on it was too easy to get hot at your PB, but I don't think the skimmer matter at all now.

In the video when asked about the fancy skimmers, the guy nonchalantly mentions that they are standard issue after touting the catch basin. You can see the wier doors laying flat with no water, and had they altered them, say changing the buoyancy so that they worked with the skimmer submerged or mostly submerged, he would have touted that too. So it's just a submerged skimmer that won't skim. Maybe the water movement in a small pool is such that it appears they work anyway, but they don't IMO.

If any crud makes it to the catch basin, it's just as likely to go down the catch basin pipe to be caught in the pump basket as you have now with no skimmer.

The way they plumbed it without the skimmer, it's 50/50 catch basin and wall suction, and when vacuuming, suction will divert to the path of least resistance below. You can plug the second catch basin, but there will always be 2 lower drains and the basin you're using to vac getting suction, meaning you won't have much suction, if any.



Also also, you yard is well protected between the fence and the house tight against the pool, with no overhanging trees. There likely won't be much to skim, ever. During those times if needed, the stuff would sink anyway if you're not running 24/7, even with skimmers. So I see it as much less of a functional issue now, besides the vacuuming. A robot solves that entirely.

You were sold something that wasn't delivered though, so I still stand with you in principle alone. I see lots of risk for little/no gain by adding standard skimmers that are submerged. You can empty the pump basket instead for only a slight increase is effort.

 

[DavidLast]

In looking at the video again, I noticed something new. The first time with my own post build PTSD going on it was too easy to get hot at your PB, but I don't think the skimmer matter at all now.

In the video when asked about the fancy skimmers, the guy nonchalantly mentions that they are standard issue after touting the catch basin. You can see the wier doors laying flat with no water, and had they altered them, say changing the buoyancy so that they worked with the skimmer submerged or mostly submerged, he would have touted that too. So it's just a submerged skimmer that won't skim. Maybe the water movement in a small pool is such that it appears they work anyway, but they don't IMO.

If any crud makes it to the catch basin, it's just as likely to go down the catch basin pipe to be caught in the pump basket as you have now with no skimmer.

The way they plumbed it without the skimmer, it's 50/50 catch basin and wall suction, and when vacuuming, suction will divert to the path of least resistance below. You can plug the second catch basin, but there will always be 2 lower drains and the basin you're using to vac getting suction, meaning you won't have much suction, if any.

View attachment 542516

Also also, you yard is well protected between the fence and the house tight against the pool, with no overhanging trees. There likely won't be much to skim, ever. During those times if needed, the stuff would sink anyway if you're not running 24/7, even with skimmers. So I see it as much less of a functional issue now, besides the vacuuming. A robot solves that entirely.

You were sold something that wasn't delivered though, so I still stand with you in principle alone. I see lots of risk for little/no gain by adding standard skimmers that are submerged. You can empty the pump basket instead for only a slight increase is effort.

I don't think this is quite how the pool or skimmers work.

The pool overflows via the slot into the gutter. Call this level A.

Water in the gutter is likely lower than Level A, and the skimmer works as usual, skimming at Level B. It would be possible to make this the preferential path to the safety solutions and achieve skim.

The safety suctions are acting as the old-fashioned balance pipe that used to be fitted to balance tanks years and years ago before flow switches. Effectively, if the water level drops below the weir, the safety suction prevents the skimmer from running dry.

I do agree there will be little suction due to the balance pipe between the skimmer and the safety suction for using a vacuum. I think this pool is intended to operate with a robot cleaner.

There’s no way I’d let that final payment check go to the builder until it’s fixed correctly.

Absolutely. Even if I could calculate a solution and make it work on paper, there is no way the final payment should be released. At the moment, this may not be solved without fitting the skimmers. And that is likely more than the final payment. I am hoping with the information requested; I may be able to work on a solution that can be implemented for less than the final payment.

 

[Newdude]

The pool overflows via the slot into the gutter. Call this level A.

The pool is halfway up the small slot when at its normal level and the water just flows into the basin. There is almost no room for evaporation error 'and aussies are lazy' (per the manufacturer dude) so they put the wall suction in so that the skimmers don't run dry when the water level drops an inch or two.



At the proper water level, the skimmer is darn near submerged if not fully in the basin. It's basically like any of us normies let the pool fill to the brim, which takes out the skimmer. I can confirm this, I've let big rains sit in the pool and waited out the evaporation. So their skimmer doesn't work when it should, and they expect the water level to drop enough that it can't work the rest of the time.

They reinvented the wheel by making it a useless square. But it sounds and looks fancy.

 

[DavidLast]

The pool is halfway up the small slot when at its normal level and the water just flows into the basin. There is almost no room for evaporation error 'and aussies are lazy' (per the manufacturer dude) so they put the wall suction in so that the skimmers don't run dry.

At the proper water level, the skimmer is darn near submerged if not fully in the basin. It's basically like any of us normies let the pool fill to the brim, which takes out the skimmer. I can confirm this, I've let big rains sit in the pool and waited out the evaporation. So their skimmer doesn't work when it should, and they expect the water level to drop enough that it can't work the rest of the time.

They reinvented the wheel by making it a useless square. But it sounds and looks fancy.

I get what you are saying. I do think there is a difference in the levels. Likely about a 10-1.5-inch difference when the skimmers are installed and operating. This is a classic overflow gutter, a bit ingenious in integrating it the way they have and a nice idea that appeals to a lot of the market that wants deck-level water.

I think the gutter is a bit small and this is what I am concerned with for other solutions.

 

[Newdude]

This is a classic overflow gutter

An overflow gutter / spill over needs a constant source of added water from a storage basin to make it overflow / spill over. Say. A 10k gallon pool and a 2k gallon holding tank that adds water to the pool, making it overflow the infinity edge back into the storage basin. Or the pool water fills the built in spa to the point it overflows back into the pool. This is neither of those.

 

[JamesW]

The manufacturer designed, engineered and architected the pool to work a specific way and the builder did not build it correctly according to the manufacturer’s specifications.

The builder also did not intentionally modify the design for a purpose; they simply made a mistake.

The builder does not dispute that they did it incorrectly.

The manufacturer does not dispute that the installation is incorrect.

It stinks, but these things happen.

What differentiates a good company from a bad company is what they do when they make a mistake.

Do they hide and try to weasel out of doing the right thing or do they admit that they were wrong and make it right?

 

[DavidLast]

An overflow gutter / spill over needs a constant source of added water from a storage basin to make it overflow / spill over. Say. A 10k gallon pool and a 2k gallon holding tank that adds water to the pool, making it overflow the infinity edge back into the storage basin. Or the pool water fills the built in spa to the point it overflows back into the pool. This is neither of those.

Yes, normally, there would be an automatic water filler fitted. In this design, I would fit it through the side of the gutter, and top-up water can be introduced there.

You are also correct in a conventional design, a holding tank is added. The 2k sizing is a rule of thumb and may not be accurate in many cases, and one thing I keep recalculating to make work. The tank can be correctly calculated and is often larger than the 20% rule of thumb.

Alternatively, you can use a gutter-only design. This is a bit more challenging. Provided sufficient volume in the gutter for backwash and sufficient freeboard for bathing load. This was one issue I saw with the design. I think it is designed to work only with a cartridge filter to avoid the backwash consumption issue.

The balance pipes are a bit of a workaround to avoid an automatic water level device. No reason to not have both, and no reason not to have the automatic level control either. It would simply make owning the pool a bit easier. This design would require regular top in our local conditions... it's not so much we are lazy Aussies (that's kiwi humour), but at 40 Celsius, our evaporation rates can be very high.

 

[DavidLast]

The manufacturer designed, engineered and architected the pool to work a specific way and the builder did not build it correctly according to the manufacturer’s specifications.

The builder also did not intentionally modify the design for a purpose; they simply made a mistake.

The builder does not dispute that they did it incorrectly.

The manufacturer does not dispute that the installation is incorrect.

It stinks, but these things happen.

What differentiates a good company from a bad company is what they do when they make a mistake.

Do they hide and try to weasel out of doing the right thing or do they admit that they were wrong and make it right?

Completely agree it's a terrible situation. It's bloody embarrassing for the industry.

Agree it is a manufactured product and intended to operate a certain way. However, I am also seeing there maybe a potential to deliver the op that they are asking for with a potentially low-cost, low-invasive solution ... perhaps. That is avoiding digging up the concrete surround etc.

At worst, I waste some time working out it is as good as it can be. Or perhaps I come up with a different idea.

 

[reggiehammond]

I notice that most people recommend that we try and get this fixed and have the skimmers installed. We haven’t even broached this with our pool builder because, frankly, I would prefer never to see him again and I‘m not sure we’d be able to get anyone else to even contemplate it.

I'm very sorry for what you're dealing with, but if you want positive resolution, your only recourse currently is to engage your builder. If you stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away, the builder will get away with a major error, at no cost.

It's already past time to engage an attorney, as you're going to have to battle to get this right. If I were you, I'd insist on the pool and all associated aspects fixed to perfection. If you start waffling, or even think about half-brain options for how to make it "work", you're going to end up with something that either doesn't work, or you'll hate.