reggiehammond
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- Oct 4, 2020
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OP deserves what they paid for, and were promised. Not a low-cost "solution."
Pool builder didn’t install any skimmers - what to do?
- Thread starter Carey2023
- Start date
I agree. However was reading they didnt want to excavate the concrete and so on. Offering to help.
Another factor is whether the OP ever plans to sell this home. Maybe someone not familiar with pools wouldn’t know about missing skimmers but anyone with a tiny bit of knowledge would have some serious questions about where the skimmers are and may be a big deterrent for the sale.
reggiehammond
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- Oct 4, 2020
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- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
I made those #s up for example sake. No such rule of thumb exists based upon pool volume. Instead, it's calculated per pool to raise the surface area 1/4 inch or so. The amount of water needed to raise the pool enough for it to overflow can be the same on 2 vastly different volume pools if the surface area measures the same. Anyone competent calculates basin size from the surface area.
Do you see any function at all here ? The angle is looking down at the skimmer. It's below the water level.
If we were to add a catch basin and convert it to an overflow pool, and the water height was functional inside the catch basin, the skimmer would only skim the catch basin being separated from the pool. Any surface debris that found the catch basin did so by dumb luck in that scenario.
So even of we fixed it to work like it should, it still wouldn't skim.
What would be gained by risking damage to the shell, and trying to match the concrete repairs ?
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,870
- Pool Size
- 12300
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
This is my uneducated guess, and perhaps what David is explaining and 'dude is missing. The skimmers are drawing water not from a large body of water (the pool), but from two very small basins. The water level in the basins is going to be lower than the water level in the pool. Just like the water level in your skimmer (if you look) is lower than your pool. The pool will constantly be "refilling" the basins, but they'll still always be lower. I'll also guess the designer figured all this out, and sized the basins properly, and set the height of the spillover properly, to achieve this very effect. I'll bet the level going into the skimmer is exactly where it needs to be, assuming you set the suction (pump RPM) to the acceptable range.
I'll also guess that 'dude is right in that the skimming is not going to work as well as a conventional skimmer would, but perhaps better than he is imagining. I also think this is why they have two skimmers right next to each other in such a small pool. They tried one, it didn't get 'em where they wanted, and so they added the 2nd and got "close enough." It's a trade off to get the high-water-hidden-skimmer dealio they're trying to sell.
I'll also guess that 'dude is right in that the skimming is not going to work as well as a conventional skimmer would, but perhaps better than he is imagining. I also think this is why they have two skimmers right next to each other in such a small pool. They tried one, it didn't get 'em where they wanted, and so they added the 2nd and got "close enough." It's a trade off to get the high-water-hidden-skimmer dealio they're trying to sell.
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Yep, I was also wondering from the pictures if the skimmers would even work but I think Dirk nailed it. In the current configuration, the water level in the basins and the water level in the pool are the same. There is no visible movement or draw of water even with the drains at the bottom of the basins open. I‘m assuming if the skimmers were attached as spec’d, then there would be a draw into the skimmer box via the weir door and the natural fluid dynamics of the skimmer which would lower the water level in the basin and make the skimmers work but probably not as well as a regular skimmer on the face of the pool wall. That’s most likely why they added two since I’m guessing that the proposed skimmers would be about half as effective as a non-hidden skimmer.
David, based on your diagram, I believe that the arrangement is correct except the connection is 1.5 inches not 2. I‘m not sure this matters but the wall drains also have separate connections to what I believe is the vacuum side of the pump. I’ll provide a pre-concrete picture that shows seven pipes coming from the pool which I believe to be 3 returns, 2 wall drains, 2 basin drains. The pool is closed right now but I’ll provide some measurements from memory. I may be off by an inch here or there but hopefully close enough. The weir openings are about 70mm high by 400mm wide. The basin itself is somewhat trapezoid shaped (smaller at the bottom, wider at the top). The length of the basin is approximately 475mm (maybe a bit larger), the width at the bottom ~ 125mm and the width at the top about 175mm. I believe that the water depth in the basin was typically around 400mm but it can, of course, go up and down a little and that there was about 50mm or so of basin above the waterline. Typically there would be 1 to 3 people in the pool at any one time with two being most common. There is no automatic water filler and my dog has a fit when I put the hose in the pool just to make my life that much more difficult.
Quick update, we did talk to a lawyer today and it turns out I can’t read a contract as well as I thought I could. ajw22 was correct about the contract being very important and ours did specify one skimmer. I do think this was a mistake because this particular pool would need two skimmers but since we got zero it is a breach of contract either way. He recommended that we contact a pool consultant and get an assessment of the potential risks of installing the skimmer(s) and the costs and then present this to our pool builder as a “how are you going to fix this” situation. He also recommended that we do not make any further payments until the contract is made good. We have spoken to someone who has been in the pool industry for decades and knows the people at Leisure Pools Canada and our pool builder. He was a bit taken aback that a mistake like the could have been made and he’s coming out on Monday to take a look at the pool (here’s hoping we don’t get a foot of snow before that to bury everything). We‘re going to keep an open mind here. If he feels that at least one skimmer could be installed without impairing the integrity of the pool then I think we might go that route. It would, at the very least, improve the vacuuming situation even if it didn’t do much to actually skim the water. Someone mentioned that we don’t have a lot of vegetation around the pool and this is correct. There is one very large tree behind us in a neighbours yard and it drops what I would consider a light amount of fluff and leaves into the pool so one 50% working skimmer might be enough. We’d still have the problem with the other basin and the very sensitive water level but I wanted a high water level pool so I guess the onus will be on me to keep it that way.
David, based on your diagram, I believe that the arrangement is correct except the connection is 1.5 inches not 2. I‘m not sure this matters but the wall drains also have separate connections to what I believe is the vacuum side of the pump. I’ll provide a pre-concrete picture that shows seven pipes coming from the pool which I believe to be 3 returns, 2 wall drains, 2 basin drains. The pool is closed right now but I’ll provide some measurements from memory. I may be off by an inch here or there but hopefully close enough. The weir openings are about 70mm high by 400mm wide. The basin itself is somewhat trapezoid shaped (smaller at the bottom, wider at the top). The length of the basin is approximately 475mm (maybe a bit larger), the width at the bottom ~ 125mm and the width at the top about 175mm. I believe that the water depth in the basin was typically around 400mm but it can, of course, go up and down a little and that there was about 50mm or so of basin above the waterline. Typically there would be 1 to 3 people in the pool at any one time with two being most common. There is no automatic water filler and my dog has a fit when I put the hose in the pool just to make my life that much more difficult.
Quick update, we did talk to a lawyer today and it turns out I can’t read a contract as well as I thought I could. ajw22 was correct about the contract being very important and ours did specify one skimmer. I do think this was a mistake because this particular pool would need two skimmers but since we got zero it is a breach of contract either way. He recommended that we contact a pool consultant and get an assessment of the potential risks of installing the skimmer(s) and the costs and then present this to our pool builder as a “how are you going to fix this” situation. He also recommended that we do not make any further payments until the contract is made good. We have spoken to someone who has been in the pool industry for decades and knows the people at Leisure Pools Canada and our pool builder. He was a bit taken aback that a mistake like the could have been made and he’s coming out on Monday to take a look at the pool (here’s hoping we don’t get a foot of snow before that to bury everything). We‘re going to keep an open mind here. If he feels that at least one skimmer could be installed without impairing the integrity of the pool then I think we might go that route. It would, at the very least, improve the vacuuming situation even if it didn’t do much to actually skim the water. Someone mentioned that we don’t have a lot of vegetation around the pool and this is correct. There is one very large tree behind us in a neighbours yard and it drops what I would consider a light amount of fluff and leaves into the pool so one 50% working skimmer might be enough. We’d still have the problem with the other basin and the very sensitive water level but I wanted a high water level pool so I guess the onus will be on me to keep it that way.
Attachments
I have drafting sketching this up for me.
When the pool was under construction did you happen to see around the basin side if the suction pipes from bottom of the basin are joining into the lines from lower in the wall? Hope thats clear enough to understand.
I think this may work.
To make this a catch basin and skimmer, we need to calculate the flow rate over the weir required.
I am assuming these are active at all times the pump is active; they are essential as a safety device for the solution I have devised.
Before I start on the potential fix, please be aware I am working from the other side of the planet so I am making some broad assumptions that may be incorrect based on the information provided. However, this fix does not involve breaking concrete (a bit of chasing but not breaking).
First, convert the existing weirs into the skimmer as such. To do this, we can apply some maths. Based on the supplied 400 mm width and the fact there are two, we can assume a total of 800 mm or 80 cm. The combined minimum flow rate for reasonably acceptable skimming in our jurisdiction is 400 litres per minute or about 106 US Gallons per minute. This may need adjustment of the suctions to the wall suctions to get good activity.
Please note this flow rate may require a change of pump, filter and any chlorination equipment and so on.
Custom baskets would need to be sourced and manufactured to suit the weir basins.
Please note the suction lines are assumed to be shared between the weirs and the wall suctions installed. Do not close the wall suctions off. They may require adjustment though. This assists with entrapment protection.
I have not calculated pipe velocity I will assume that the water flow can fit through the pipe and its opening.
To meet entrapment protection, I am proposing the construction of a minor control system. Effectively and somewhat unusual for a domestic installation, an immediate acting and super sensitive flow switch would be added to the pump's discharge. This will need to be adjusted to maximum sensitivity. In the event of any minor disruption from flow the flow switch will trip and stop the pump. The obvious disadvantage is this will require preferably 6 monthly testing or more often if practical to ensure it is 100% operational. Another disadvantage will be the basket for the pump and skimmers, and the filter must be kept very clean.
With the flow switch being immediately active, a timer will be required within the start sequence to allow the pump to start up and reach flow before the flow switch is engaged.
The bathing load will increase water depth by 15 mm or close enough to half an inch. Again, not calculated, I anticipate a weir depth of around 30 mm or just a bit over an inch during normal operation.
As the water depth is now more critical to the functioning of the pool an electronic level controller will likely be required. Hopefully, this can work on conductivity and require two wires for the level that can be chased into place without major work.
I am concerned about air reversing from the filter when the pump turns off. Again, not normally installed domestically, I would be inclined to fit a check valve or non-return between the pump and filter.
Unfortunately, this probably won't fix the vacuum issue. I think the intent of the design originally was to fit a blanking plate to one skimmer and a vacuum plate to the other, however, I may be wrong. Been wrong before.
I think to fix the vacuum a robot vacuum cleaner would likely be the best solution.
This is about as detailed as I can be from where I am. As I said it avoids cutting the concrete and could work with the existing pool.
Perhaps have a chat with a few contractors and see if any of them seem to follow this enough to give you confidence if you want to explore this solution. This is a suggestion, and we will need someone local to check if it will work. It will require a reasonably experienced technician to install and complete this work.
Another thought @Carey2023. Premium skimmers are about $250 each. Functionality aside and purely from a get what you paid for standpoint, the $1300 offered is about what they would have cost in parts/ labor had they been installed.
It would not remove the hard feelings but it would make you whole for what you paid for.
It would not remove the hard feelings but it would make you whole for what you paid for.
The problem with a fixed height overflow is that it is very difficult to get the proper skimming action.
Skimming relies on having a relatively thin layer of water going over the weir at higher velocity.
For most skimmers, the weir floats and it self-adjusts by several inches and it creates a thin layer of higher velocity water.
For a fixed weir, like a perimeter overflow or an infinity edge, the water in the pool has to be raised by about 1/4” to about 1/2” to make the water overflow.
For a 16 x 32 pool, you have about 317 gallons per inch, which is about 79 gallons for a 1/4” lift or about 158 gallons for a 1/2” lift.
If the fixed weirs are 18” each, for a total of 3 feet, then you need to know the maximum flow that you want.
For example, if you want 100 GPM, then you need 33 GPM per foot, which is about 15/16” of lift.
If you kept the level at the top of the weir, you would need to provide a surge tank of about 300 gallons plus maybe 300 for margin, which is 600 gallons total.
If you keep the water at 1” above the weir, then you could get good skimming at 100 GPM, but poor skimming at less than 100 GPM.
If you keep the water level at 1/2” above the weir, then you can get good skimming at about 38 GPM, but you would need a 300 gallon surge to get to about 100 GPM because over 38 GPM, the system would run dry as not enough water will go over the weir to keep the pump primed.
So, to get good skimming, you need to know the flow rate and then you have to keep the water level exactly where it will provide good skimming, which is a very small window of about +/- 1/4” or you need to provide a surge tank.
Overall, the design is really not great and it will require keeping the water level within a window of about +/- 1/2” or it will require a surge tank.
The manufacturer added the equalizer line because they realized that the design did not really work very well.
Skimming relies on having a relatively thin layer of water going over the weir at higher velocity.
For most skimmers, the weir floats and it self-adjusts by several inches and it creates a thin layer of higher velocity water.
For a fixed weir, like a perimeter overflow or an infinity edge, the water in the pool has to be raised by about 1/4” to about 1/2” to make the water overflow.
For a 16 x 32 pool, you have about 317 gallons per inch, which is about 79 gallons for a 1/4” lift or about 158 gallons for a 1/2” lift.
If the fixed weirs are 18” each, for a total of 3 feet, then you need to know the maximum flow that you want.
For example, if you want 100 GPM, then you need 33 GPM per foot, which is about 15/16” of lift.
If you kept the level at the top of the weir, you would need to provide a surge tank of about 300 gallons plus maybe 300 for margin, which is 600 gallons total.
If you keep the water at 1” above the weir, then you could get good skimming at 100 GPM, but poor skimming at less than 100 GPM.
If you keep the water level at 1/2” above the weir, then you can get good skimming at about 38 GPM, but you would need a 300 gallon surge to get to about 100 GPM because over 38 GPM, the system would run dry as not enough water will go over the weir to keep the pump primed.
So, to get good skimming, you need to know the flow rate and then you have to keep the water level exactly where it will provide good skimming, which is a very small window of about +/- 1/4” or you need to provide a surge tank.
Overall, the design is really not great and it will require keeping the water level within a window of about +/- 1/2” or it will require a surge tank.
The manufacturer added the equalizer line because they realized that the design did not really work very well.
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The skimmers really do not do much.
The skimmer weir is basically pointless because the skimming action happens at the fixed weir.
The only thing the skimmer adds is the equalizer line, which gives you a little bit of leeway in the water level by providing a second source of water.
If the skimmers had a float valve, then that could help to prevent the skimmers running dry.
It looks like you have main drains, which can help provide water and that can make up part of the flow.
The main issue is that a fixed weir requires either a surge tank or a very carefully controlled water level and a limited flow range.
You can keep the water level high enough to provide plenty of flow at full speed, but then you get very weak skimming action.
Overall, the design is more of a marketing gimmick than an actual benefit.
The skimmer weir is basically pointless because the skimming action happens at the fixed weir.
The only thing the skimmer adds is the equalizer line, which gives you a little bit of leeway in the water level by providing a second source of water.
If the skimmers had a float valve, then that could help to prevent the skimmers running dry.
It looks like you have main drains, which can help provide water and that can make up part of the flow.
The main issue is that a fixed weir requires either a surge tank or a very carefully controlled water level and a limited flow range.
You can keep the water level high enough to provide plenty of flow at full speed, but then you get very weak skimming action.
Overall, the design is more of a marketing gimmick than an actual benefit.
I'm nobody here. Just a rando internet dude that doesn't engineer pools. Yet, I can't imagine why they didn't make an overflow and auto fill mandatory to greatly increase the chances of keeping the water level in the sweet spot.
The problem is that you end up wasting a lot of water.
When it rains, you lose all of the free water.
When it is dry and you lose water to evaporation, the fill has to make it up.
If you have a variable level, the rain can fill and evaporation can remove and you do not have to use much fill water.
If you live in an area where the rain and evaporation mostly offset, then you might never need to add water.
If you live in a very dry area where you get a lot of evaporation and very little rain, then it is less of an issue because you have to add water anyway.
If you live where there is a lot of rain and little evaporation, then it is less of an issue because you are draining a lot anyway.
Overall, the fixed weirs really need a surge tank to provide the necessary variable capacity unless you want to maintain the level and flow in tight limits or you want to accept poor skimming action.
When it rains, you lose all of the free water.
When it is dry and you lose water to evaporation, the fill has to make it up.
If you have a variable level, the rain can fill and evaporation can remove and you do not have to use much fill water.
If you live in an area where the rain and evaporation mostly offset, then you might never need to add water.
If you live in a very dry area where you get a lot of evaporation and very little rain, then it is less of an issue because you have to add water anyway.
If you live where there is a lot of rain and little evaporation, then it is less of an issue because you are draining a lot anyway.
Overall, the fixed weirs really need a surge tank to provide the necessary variable capacity unless you want to maintain the level and flow in tight limits or you want to accept poor skimming action.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,870
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I was typing the following while 'dude was beating me to it!
When it's not raining, my pool's auto-leveling system keeps my water level dead on. I'll say within ±1/16", but I bet it's even better than that. I agree with @JamesW's take on the dependency of the skimming efficiency on the water level. I can't imagine owning any pool without an auto leveling system. But this pool without one just seems like a major design flaw. The system they included to deal with water level drop to protect the pump is a good safeguard, but for a few hundred dollars more there could have also been a water level mangagement system included that would have gone a long way in maintaining the pool's skimming, the desired aesthetics, all with a minimum of effort (including keeping the dog happy!). Mine handles both auto-filling and overflow, so it's a true auto-leveler, not just auto-filler.
Point being, if they're going to be busting out concrete, you could have an auto leveler installed. It would require a water supply line, so there would be some trenching involved. And perhaps because of your frost line up there auto levelers are not generally installed in your climate. But personally, I'd rather be bothered with blowing out the supply line once a year than fussy with the pool's water level every day or two.
I only hinted at this previously, but it's what I suspect.
There are auto-leveling systems that can get installed at the pad, like after a pool is built. I'm not exactly sure how they work, but they wouldn't require digging or busting anything up, and could probably be winterized just as easily as everything else. If the perfect water level and a couple of custom made skimmer baskets to fit those two wells, would effectively turn them into skimmers, maybe that's all that is needed here. I'm sure the OP and the builder would jump at this option. It's certainly something that could be tried before the jack hammer shows up. Maybe run it like that for a year, with the agreed-to stipulation: builder understands that if this solution doesn't work, then he's got to then... blah, blah, blah.
This guy is one such solution, Pentair's IntelliLevel. Check out the linked installation PDF to see how this gets installed at the equipment pad. This could actually be in that $1300 budget. I believe the gizmo is around $600, the rest for installation. I think this thing can keep your water level within ±1/4".
IntelliLevel™ Automatic Water Leveling System
The best water level for new construction with pool automation. With the IntelliLevel Water Leveling Monitor’s multi-sensing technology, your pool’s water level stays at just right amount, no more overflowing or wasting water.
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Agreed. But they designed a system with next to no room for real world error.
So it would make more sense to say 'there is some waste in exchange for efficiency, if you prefer the high water look' than to say 'lol, it'll never work so we put wall drains in to save your pump.'
The rain and evaporation need time to equalize. It doesn't rain an inch and then immediately evaporate, anywhere. So whether it's high or low, the system doesn't work in the meantime as it fluctuates. It might be a week, or 4.
I live in one of those areas where it usually breaks even and have let the pool be low or high more times than I can count, knowing it would fix itself.
But Murphys. If I needed evaporation, there was none, *or* more rain. If I needed rain, it was dry as a bone.
At the 2 week mark I gave up and fixed it myself 99% of the time.
But Murphys. If I needed evaporation, there was none, *or* more rain. If I needed rain, it was dry as a bone.
At the 2 week mark I gave up and fixed it myself 99% of the time.
I contacted the manufacturer to ask about skimming and they told me to get one of these.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,870
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
That's not how mine works. Both the auto-fill level and the overflow level are independently adjustable. I've set my overflow level about 1.5" higher than my auto-fill level. So my pool can collect and make use of all but the most craziest rain. A big dump of rain gets "over-flowed" to the yard, but that would have to happen any way.