Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - pebble and tile touch up suggestions

[Schwimmbad]

After about a year of working up designs and pricing with a few pool builders, reading stories on PBs (both great and horror stories), talking to a few people about both PB and OB, I've decided to go the OB route. Fingers crossed I'm making the right decision. Settled on BYOP and have an initial draft of a pool design. I’ll be going to a hardscape designer for everything else.

I will be retiring next year and moving in July with my wife from IL to Buckeye, AZ to a 55+ community in a home being built now. Hope to start construction in August or September. I have never had a pool so I'm as green as they come. I'm an electrical engineer and have been a project manager for an electric utility for many years. I have dealt with quite a bit of construction, contracts, and contractors, so that aspect of being an OB I'm entirely comfortable with. After months of reading this forum I realize how much there is to this whole pool thing. I throw myself at the mercy of the experts to help me make the best decisions as an OB and keep me from making significant mistakes. I expect to make mistakes, just trying to avoid big ones.

Anyway, on to my plans. I'd really love to hear any suggestions, critiques, or comments on anything below. I do have several questions throughout my notes. Thanks in advance for any contributions.

The primary purpose of the pool will be for me to jump in to cool off after golfing in the summer, my wife wants the baja ledge, so a baja ledge she gets! As the saying goes, happy wife... She doesn't think she will use a spa, and while it would look nice we think it would get little use by us or guests, I'd rather save the $15-20k, so no spa. She wants an IFCS because she doesn't want to see a robot and cord running around the pool. I've overruled her on this one (hope I don't regret it later) and decided I don't want the additional IFCS equipment, expense, and inevitable maintenance. I'd rather have a robot, for me and our dog to play with.

Pool will be 30' x 16' rectangular with a 4' shallow to 5'6" deep, 12' x 7' baja ledge 9" water depth, ~19K gallons. We are waffling on the depth of the water for the baja ledge – 6", 9", or 12", any comments? Seating along entire South wall, and along the deep end of the North wall. Still debating on how deep to make the deep end, I'm 6'1" so I think I could stand, but wondering what folks think about 6' or maybe 6'6". Also, I was thinking about having the shallow end flat for 10' or so, but the BYOP designer said it needs to be sloped. Is he right and if so what is the reason? Is there a typical minimum slope advisable? Any comments about a flat section?

Some additional pool plans:
Skimmer – 2 A&A Venturi – Each skimmer will have its own dedicated plumbing line back to the equipment pad
Returns – 4, but should we have one on baja ledge? I welcome comments on their placement in the attached initial plan. Any likely dead spots?
Main drain – Dual AVSC – Have dedicated plumbing back to equipment pad
Vacuum line – Install dedicated plumbing line to the equipment pad – Is this a waste money to put in a vacuum line?
Lights – 4 Color Microbrites, all facing away from the patio/house, still have to review the jandy doc on lighting
Water feature – 12’ long 18" tall wall with 3 – 24" copper scuppers (might want to change these to 12”)
Fire feature – 2 fire pots on columns at the ends of the water feature wall

Initial equipment plans:
Equipment Manufacturer – Pentair
Pool Pump – Pentair VSF
Feature Pump – Pentair water feature pump – Can I control flow with automation with a valve or would I need a variable speed pump?
Filter – Cartridge Pentair 420, install valve downstream of the filter.
Control center – Pentair Intellicenter i8PS – Is this the right one for what I am planning?
SWG – 2x size of pool min (probably IC40)
Cyclone – MultiCyclone
Debris Canister – A&A LeafVac
QuickWater Leveler – Run soft water line for auto fill
Heat pump – plan pad space for future – Not sure we want one, want to see how we use the pool and how it performs
Glacier Chiller – plan pad space for future – Same comment as with heat pump
Rebuildable valves and unions on both sides of all equipment
All diverter valves and no ball valves used
Will want a plumbing schematic drawn up – BYOP guy says he can prepare one, however most plumbers will make their own schematic (their preferred method), is this really true?
Equipment pad – Plan for a light by the pad

The HOA language is pretty strict for the screening equipment. It says “The solid screen wall and solid gate shall be a minimum of 12” higher than the highest point of the equipment in order to provide full visual screening from the golf course, streets, Open Space, and adjacent lots; with a maximum height of 54". This seems to say all equipment must be below 42”. I’ll be asking about it, but if so, that seems to significantly limit my choice of filter. If this is true, I couldn’t even use the smallest Pentair C&C filter. Did I say yet how much I hate how restrictive HOAs are?

Since no self-respecting build thread can really be one without pictures, see below. Overhead google map view of our home, a few pictures of the backyard and view, and the initial design of the pool. The hardscape layout is only conceptual for arrangement and potential size at this point.

I’ll update this post with key dates as this journey unfolds.

Since I have already learned so much and plan to use the TFP methodology, I already signed up as a gold supporter, well worth my $$. I feel strongly that I can navigate this adventure with the help of the TFP crew.

Posts 2 through 10 in this thread are from an earlier thread specifically about ledge depth and returns that was moved from HERE

Schwimmbad said:
Jumping on this thread to pose a related question, can a return be installed on a ledge that is 6” deep? Is there a minimum suggested depth?

 

[ajw22]

Jumping on this thread to pose a related question, can a return be installed on a ledge that is 6” deep? Is there a minimum suggested depth?

Where is that 6" deep point relative to the normal water level of midpoint of the skimmer mouth or relative to the bottom of the skimmer mouth?

I would say a return can be placed anywhere as long as it is below the bottom of the skimmer mouth so it will always be underwater.

 

[Schwimmbad]

6" below water level, that is midpoint of skimmer mouth.

 

[ajw22]

6" below water level, that is midpoint of skimmer mouth.

If the water will be at the bottom fo the skimmer mouth will that return be a few inches underwater?

 

[Schwimmbad]

If the water will be at the bottom fo the skimmer mouth will that return be a few inches underwater?

If the return is set as close to the bottom of the ledge as possible, it will only have a few inches of water cover. That was the reason for the question. Seems like that is not a good idea and we should plan for a ledge to be deeper if putting a return on it.

 

[ajw22]

Why do you need a return on the ledge?

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

This return is at 7” of water.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Why do you need a return on the ledge?

Need? Good question, not sure we need it.

I was thinking (maybe overthinking it) that water on a shallow ledge would heat up in the hot Phoenix sun in the summer. I expect we will get some circulation from returns in the pool but if water is moving more I thought maybe it wouldn’t get as much heat gain. It would also help move some dirt off the ledge.

Never had a pool before so my thoughts aren’t based on any experience. Definitely would like feedback if it is a good idea or not.

 

[Schwimmbad]

This return is at 7” of water

So it has been done, thanks.

 

[02slowride]

Our pool has returns in the floor of 6” deep sun self. They are like this style.
One benefit is they keep debris from settling on the self and avoid an eddy that pools surface debris.

https://www.amazon.com/Pool-Eyeball-Jet-Threaded-Adjustable/dp/B004L85AOI/ref=asc_df_B004L85AOI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167126215582&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15955404687556185960&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=21176&hvtargid=pla-307823556239&psc=1

They do protrude from the floor so they might be A tripping hazard if not aware.

Initially we had this style, but they caused more surface agitation. AquaStar Flush Retrofit Eyeball | Blue | JO104

 

[Schwimmbad]

This post on Dec 17th was my initial post for a build thread, I copied and pasted it back into Post #1 in this thread.

 

[pjt]

That will be a beautiful view!

she doesn't want to see a robot and cord running around the pool.

You can remove and store the robot out of sight when you're not using it. The robot will clean better than an IFCS and costs a tiny fraction of the cost to buy and operate. I think you're making the right choice with the robot.

5'6" deep

Still debating on how deep to make the deep end

That's just deep enough that most people can't stand on the bottom. Consider 5' or commit to a true deep end.

We are waffling on the depth of the water for the baja ledge – 6", 9", or 12", any comments?

Personal preference, although I think 6" would be too shallow. We have 12" on ours and it works well.

Returns – 4, but should we have one on baja ledge?

I would have 5-6 including one on the ledge.

Main drain

Optional.

Vacuum line

Optional. With a robot and no plans for a suction side cleaner, you can skip this. You can vacuum from the skimmer if you ever needed to (probably never).

Feature Pump

You can run your pool and its features with just one VSF pump. No need for a second pump.

Intellicenter i8PS

Since you don't have a spa, the i5P Personality Kit version would work. You don't even need a personality expansion card, but I'm not sure you can get an IntelliCenter without one.

SWG – 2x size of pool min (probably IC40)

Although the IC40 would work fine, the IC60 is a better value.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

You need a light on the Baja shelf or it’s going to look dark compared to the rest of the pool.
If you have a light on the step make sure it has the ability to be moved around for proper elevation during the Shotcrete process, someone needs to be on site to check for center of the step and take into consideration the thickness of the plaster when it’s being shot in its final location.
The entry step will take up 12” of the Baja shelf, consider a 45 in each corner to leave more room for lounges.
The design has a lot of elevations that do not match up cleanly with the Baja shelf, will the bench to the right be the same elevation as the shelf?
The area of the steps need a return line.
Center the return line on the Baja shelf pointing out towards the middle of the pool.
Included is a picture of a Baja shelf at 7” to the middle of the tile line, the water level can be adjusted up or down 2” depending on your liking.

 

[Jaffles]

My Baja shelf (beach) waterline goes from 6" to 16" deep over 10ft. Kind of works for every occasion.

Check the price of blue lights opposed to multi color. Multis are a lot more expansive and was advised 99% of the time they will be left on blue. We went multi only for young teenagers and the disco party thing. In saying that ours are left on green after the party is over.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thanks @pjt for all your comments, really appreciate it.

I'll have to think about the pool depth some more. At the current design there is about 18' of the 30' length that is 5' or less.

For the baja shelf we are leaning towards 9", I agree that 6" seems too shallow.

On the returns the designer originally put one return by the steps. He moved that one to the baja at my request. I will ask to put one back by the steps.

I read this thread asking if main drains are necessary and felt if we are on vacation for several weeks or more (happens a lot with retirees in Phoenix area) and the auto leveler failed the skimmers could run dry. I saw one thread somewhere where the auto leveler failed, but have no idea if it is really a risk worth considering? The thread I referenced did talk about a way to run a line between the main drain and the skimmer that would automatically pull from the main drain if the skimmers went dry. How does that work? If we eliminate the main drain what else might be downsides? It seems like it provides some options at a relatively low cost.

I thought the vacuum line probably wasn't needed. Just wanted to start with considering more and eliminating stuff, I'll remove.

The designer originally proposed to one VSF to run the pool and feature. How does it work to control the flow of the features while running the pump for the pool? Would I be able to run both at the same time and use automation to control a valve that runs a percentage of the flow to the pool and the features? Would this be variable control?

I have to admit I haven't looked at the intellicenter capabilities yet, I'll have to look at the i5p.

Never thought about the IC60 being a better value. Just did a quick check at one site and you are spot on. Rough cost for IC60 is ~$1,350 and IC40 is ~$1,000. 50% more for 35% cost.

 

[Jaffles]

Regarding depth, what and who is the pool going to cater for.
If grand kids are coming over than a good length of shallow end is probably useful. Toddlers will benefit from a shelf but to my mind, does anyone sit around in 6" or water for long, or even on a sun lounge? I have small dog so sloping from 6" to 16" was designed just as much for her to enjoy as us, but the slope allowed for varying depths of water. You can have your shoulders out but legs fully under water, or move the chair-longe to water ever depth desired.
If laps are on the agenda having stairs all the way across the end will put a stop to some of that. Deep ends are good for jumping into or practicing back flips, probably not for you or friends after golf. But hey good to stay young. My sone hates it but my fist dip in the new pool was a nude dumb dive.

I have VSP and deck jets next to a jumping rock, the speed of the pump plus valving dictates flow of the jet. This also dictates how noisy the water feature is. I use a 3 way valve that is manually adjusted to required flow (for the mood at the time) from Off to Low to Max. It is also pinned so fully open is still only 3/4 flow for when the pump is on prime or max cycle. I do this so the kids can't get it wrong or blow something up. Personally I'd steer away from getting to technical. Its nice when new but can easily have issues over time.

To be honest if it was just the wife and I, I 'd just set the valve to low. It creates a soft water trickle noise opposed to gushing which is quite loud. Sure the fires up when the VSP starts the day and goes through the prime cycle on max 3050 RPM, but it also alerts you the pool is alive and working. It then return to quiet achiever mode at 1750 RPM and we're back to soft trickle. If we don't want any background noise I just turn the valve to off. If the kids want to jump into the jets it get turned to (pegged) open, but still at 1750RPM.

 

[Schwimmbad]

You need a light on the Baja shelf or it’s going to look dark compared to the rest of the pool.
If you have a light on the step make sure it has the ability to be moved around for proper elevation during the Shotcrete process, someone needs to be on site to check for center of the step and take into consideration the thickness of the plaster when it’s being shot in its final location.
The entry step will take up 12” of the Baja shelf, consider a 45 in each corner to leave more room for lounges.
The design has a lot of elevations that do not match up cleanly with the Baja shelf, will the bench to the right be the same elevation as the shelf?
The area of the steps need a return line.
Center the return line on the Baja shelf pointing out towards the middle of the pool.
Included is a picture of a Baja shelf at 7” to the middle of the tile line, the water level can be adjusted up or down 2” depending on your liking.

Thanks for the feedback, lots of great comments. Completely overlooked the light on the shelf, great catch! I also like your comment on having the step into the shelf as a 45 in each corner, will see if the wife agrees. Your other comments are straight forward and I’ll incorporate them.

I’m trying to make sure I understand your note on different elevations. Is your point that I'll have a different elevation for 1) the step into the baja, 2) the baja shelf itself, 3) the top step into the pool, 4) the second step into the pool, and 5) the bench on the right side? I haven't thought about elevations of the different items, if I understand your comment correctly it obviously shows! We are planning on using 2 CM Arterra porcelain coping to go along with the porcelain paver deck. I guess the math would be 3.79" from top of coping to water depth (.79" for coping, 3" for tile to water).

With this 2 cm coping, should we use a different waterline tile than 6” to make up for the 2 in difference to a “standard” coping? What would be a good depth for the baja and the steps? Maybe if I change the Baja depth to 12” that makes the step elevation line up better. I could go with 8” steps rise and line up pretty good. The benches I plan to have at a few different depths depending on location.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

My note on the different elevations is in regards to the bench that is right of the Baja shelf and the four steps that end at the Baja shelf.
Your entry steps ending at the Baja shelf is going to be a dead are for water circulation and un useable for any other than entering the pool and the steps are 9’ wide with the last one protruding into the play area of the pool.
I will provide a picture of a 45 degree step on a Baja shelf for you to show your wife.
The thicknesses of the coping should have no direct influence on the tile, 6” tile should be fine.
A good depth on the Baja shelf depends on how you plan on using it. 7” to 8” are common if you plan on having Ledge Lounges (picture #2), remember you have close to 4” of adjustments in water height if the skimmer is set by the plumber correctly.

 

[pjt]

if we are on vacation for several weeks or more

You'll likely have a friend or neighbor check on things periodically while you're gone. You can also use a security camera to check the water level.

If we eliminate the main drain what else might be downsides?

You wouldn't have the backup option that you mentioned above. Main drains don't really do much. I built my pool without main drains. I want to minimize points of failure and I like the simplicity. Works great.

I thought the vacuum line probably wasn't needed.

I would agree. It's another point of potential failure.

How does it work to control the flow of the features while running the pump for the pool? Would I be able to run both at the same time and use automation to control a valve that runs a percentage of the flow to the pool and the features?

A diverter valve would direct water either to your water features or returns. (My system is setup this way.) You can add a valve actuator to control it through your automation.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Plaster bidding/installation topic, looking for insight from those in the know or with the recent experience, particularly in AZ.

Jumping waaaayyyy ahead in the process and started reading up on plastering, wow do I have a lot to learn. I have read through the notes from Ten Guidelines for Quality Pool Plaster and the article A Plastering 'Watch List' | Professional Watershaping | Watershapes along with some of the content in the TFP WiKi on Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading. Anyway, I'm creating a bid document (attached pdf below) to be used when sending out to bid the plaster. What a great time to do all this as I've got lots of downtime after Christmas and before getting back to work next year.

As I was reading all this stuff, it left me wondering if anyone has tried to incorporate most of the key points in a bid document and how it went. I'm guessing several plaster companies won't agree to everything and likely won't even bid on a job with a bid document like I created. Maybe those that won't bid I don't want anyway and will be better off without them. I would hope the best plaster companies would be fine with what I am including in the contract, but if I was the owner of a plaster company and an OB sent a bid document like this it feels like it would set off warning bells that the customer is going to be a PITA and simply steer clear, not even reply to a request for a quote. In the intro in the document, I try to set the stage to hopefully not scare off bidders.

Any and all comments are welcomed. Tagging @onBalance as the author of the renowned "Ten Commandments..." er, "Ten Guidelines...". I just realized that was written over 10 years ago, not quite as long ago as the Ten Commandments, but still, wow.

I'm wondering if I should "trim down" my 3-page document or try to soften it as more like guidelines or recommendations instead of some harsh language that gets into contract space. Extremely grateful for any guidance folks care to offer.