New pool - Equipment comparison help between 2 leading bids

[Furiousss]

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a new build and have narrowed in on 2 builders, both of which have recently built pools in my neighborhood. I would love some feedback on the equipment proposed. I don't know if this stuff is "good" or if one option is in another league from the other. I've never owned a pool before. DFW area.

Gunnite 38 * 16', 4-6-5' depth

#1
SECTION D - PLUMBING
15. install schedule 40 pvc plumbing and pressure test system
for pool plumbing during construction
16. install tanning ledge with bubbler fountain
* Quantity of Bubblers 2
17. provide standard outdoor main drain with hydrostatic relief valve
18. install the indicated number of pool skimmers 2
19. install the indicated number of pool returns 4
20. install 1/2 inch fill line as a minimum from hose bibb
21. install freezeguard and overflow

SECTION I - EQUIPMENT
30. Hayward TriStar VS 900 1
31. Booster Pump - Tristar VS900 1
32. Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter 1
33. Hayward 400,000 BTU Heater - NG 1
34. Omni Logic PL Control System Yes
ADEQUATE INTERNET TO EQUIPMENT BY HOMEOWNER
35. Aquarite Controller & Turbo Cell 1

#2 (I've since asked him to include salt)

Plumbing Package PLUMBING and EQUIPMENT
- 2'' pool return
- 2'' skimmers suction
- 2.1/5'' pool suction
- 1.1/2'' fountain return and bubblier feature
- EQUIPMENT
- easy touch 8SC 9
- screen logic
- master tem 460BTU NG ( digital ) - pool and spa heater
- intelliflo VS - PUR-10-1018
- whisperflo WF 1.5HP ( booster )
- clean and clear cartrige 520
- pentair racer pressure pool cleaner

 

[Jimrahbe]

F,

The brands of equipment are both good.

The problem is that without specifics it is hard to tell exactly what you are going to get.

I am a Pentair kind of guy, so looking at builder #2, I see several issues. He seems to be stuck in the past..

The EasyTouch with ScreenLogic is old tech, the new IntelliCenter is about the same price and a much better system.

I am not a fan of pressure side cleaners, so you need to decide what cleaning system you want. Suction side, Pressure side, or Robot cleaners.

I like the CCP-520.. Large cartridge filter.

I like the IntelliFlo pump, but you need to know which one.

He does not list the number of skimmers or the number of returns. I suggest 2 skimmer individually connect to the equipment pad, and 4 returns.

No Ball valves allowed, only Jandy style valves.

Saltwater is the only way to go. The salt system should be part of a package then comes with the automation (EasyTouch or IntelliCenter) so that it is all in one box.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[PoolGate]

For this:

17. provide standard outdoor main drain with hydrostatic relief valve
18. install the indicated number of pool skimmers 2
19. install the indicated number of pool returns 4

Make sure all of these are homeruns back to the equipment pad. Also make sure you are getting 4 returns in addition to the 2 bubblers.
Make sure the floor drain is not tied into the skimmers. Some builders do this.
I also suggest have a couple floor returns as it aids in water and heat mixing.

 

[Furiousss]

Thanks for feedback so far. Another question on the heater. One is 400k btu, the other 460k. I assume this is due in part to what each brand offers in a segment.

Is NG still the way to go, or should I pursue a heat pump?

 

[PoolGate]

Thanks for feedback so far. Another question on the heater. One is 400k btu, the other 460k. I assume this is due in part to what each brand offers in a segment.

Is NG still the way to go, or should I pursue a heat pump?

400k is about as high as they go. 460k sounds higher but may just be the way they rate them. Natural gas for sure will be the fastest heating with 1-2 degrees per hour heat rise in your pool. You also can use NG "on demand" and leave it off when you aren't swimming. You can also extend your season with NG. Heat pump is more gradual just a few degrees per day. It typically will not extend your season and is virtually useless with temps below 70s. You also will not be able to use a heat pump for a spa if you are getting that. And heat pumps usually cost more. $7k vs around $5k (with installation).

BTW: My 400k BTU gas heater costs around $5/hour to run. It has increased my gas bill by double (year round average not just in months I use it). I keep my pool at 90, however.

 

[Furiousss]

Sounds like NG is the way to go. Extending the season is the whole point as far as I'm concerned.

Wow, 90 degrees? Actually being able to cool the water on 110 degree days was another appeal of the heat pump beyond the increased energy efficiency. Doesn't sound worth the reduced capability.

No spa for me.

 

[PoolGate]

Sounds like NG is the way to go. Extending the season is the whole point as far as I'm concerned.

Wow, 90 degrees? Actually being able to cool the water on 110 degree days was another appeal of the heat pump beyond the increased energy efficiency. Doesn't sound worth the reduced capability.

No spa for me.

Yep true in TX and other hot areas they do sometimes need to run a chiller, which many heat pumps can do. Ask your neighbors with pools what they use.

 

[ajw22]

I prefer Pentair equipment but this equipment is so wrong...

- easy touch 8SC 9
- screen logic

As Jim said the EasyTouch+ Screenlogic is 20+ year old technology and you should be getting the IntelliCenter. The IntelliCenter has integrated networking and a dedicated app.

IntelliCenter® and IntelliCenter Lite Pool Control Systems

The IntelliCenter Pool Automation system works with the IntelliCenter2 app to put total pool control right in the palm of your hand.

www.pentair.com

- master tem 460BTU NG ( digital ) - pool and spa heater

The largest MasterTemp heater Pentair makes is 400K BTU. Are you being quoted the 400, 400HD, 400ASME or 400 ASME HD heater?

MasterTemp® High Performance Pool and Spa Heaters

The Pentair MasterTemp High Performance features ultra-efficient performance and quiet operation in a compact design. Shop products here.

www.pentair.com

- intelliflo VS - PUR-10-1018

That is not a valid Pentair pump model number.

Pool Pumps

We know a pool is only as good as its pump, our line of innovative, longer lasting, and higher performing pool pumps. View our ENERGY efficient pumps here.

www.pentair.com

- whisperflo WF 1.5HP ( booster )

Pentair has specific pumps for a cleaner booster. The Whisperflo pump is not the best pump for that application.

Boost-Rite Booster Pressure-Side Cleaner Pool Pump - TradeGrade

The Pentair Boost-Rite Booster Pump delivers greater water pressure for powerful pressure-side cleaning, while reducing energy.

www.pentair.com

HydroBoost™ Booster Pump - TradeGrade

The IntelliFlo VSF pump is the first of its kind to respond to changes in your pool’s environment in order to maintain a preprogrammed flow rate. There’s no more guesswork—just set the desired flow rate and the pump will adjust as needed. It’s like cruise control for your pump. And, the...

www.pentair.com

Other then equipment there is not enough detail to comment on the differences between the proposals. The devil is in the details of what the Builder will do and there are not much detail in items like plumbing and electrical and plaster finishes etc.

This reading may help in your decisions...

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[HermanTX]

Sounds like NG is the way to go. Extending the season is the whole point as far as I'm concerned.

Wow, 90 degrees? Actually being able to cool the water on 110 degree days was another appeal of the heat pump beyond the increased energy efficiency. Doesn't sound worth the reduced capability.

No spa for me.

If you wish to cool your pool then go with a separate chiller such as Glacier. Trying to use a heat pump to do both is not efficient for a pool . Stick with a NG heater as that will be best to efficiently heat the pool. The $5/hr is about right to run the heater so since there is no spa you will be heating the complete pool volume. You may wish to consider a solar cover to retain the heat on those shoulder months of the summer.

 

[Furiousss]

I think I've decided on #1. Their communication is much better. For example, when I asked #2 about the older screen logic being replaced with intellicenter, his response was that "we use latest technology equipment and intellicenter is available with no extra charge". Sounds nice, I guess, but why not call it out? Dealing directly with the owner.

 

[HermanTX]

I think I've decided on #1. Their communication is much better. For example, when I asked #2 about the older screen logic being replaced with intellicenter, his response was that "we use latest technology equipment and intellicenter is available with no extra charge". Sounds nice, I guess, but why not call it out? Dealing directly with the owner.

Remember to negotiate payment terms with your selected PB. Try to hold 10% back until after pool is filled and all punch list items are completed.

 

[Furiousss]

Remember to negotiate payment terms with your selected PB. Try to hold 10% back until after pool is filled and all punch list items are completed.

#1 is:
10% down
40% at start of excavation
30% at start of gunite
20% at start of deck forming
10% at start of interior finish

#2 is:
0 down
35% at excavation
30% at start of gunite
30% at start of tile/coping
5% at start of plaster

 

[ajw22]

#1 is:
10% down
40% at start of excavation
30% at start of gunite
20% at start of deck forming
10% at start of interior finish

#2 is:
0 down
35% at excavation
30% at start of gunite
30% at start of tile/coping
5% at start of plaster

Neither would be acceptable to me.

Are you buying a hole in the ground or a fully operational pool? Builder gets paid their 10% profit when they deliver the pool as specified in the contract.

Never let your payments get ahead of the builders actual costs incurred.

 

[Furiousss]

Neither would be acceptable to me.

Are you buying a hole in the ground or a fully operational pool? Builder gets paid their 10% profit when they deliver the pool as specified in the contract.

Never let your payments get ahead of the builders actual costs incurred.

Makes sense. "At completion of ________________" is reasonable?

You can ask for anything, but having never done this before I don't know.

I have the benefit of having seen (from a distance) both builders complete pools at two neighbors' houses last summer.

 

[PoolGate]

Makes sense. "At completion of ________________" is reasonable?

You can ask for anything, but having never done this before I don't know.

I have the benefit of having seen (from a distance) both builders complete pools at two neighbors' houses last summer.

You can ask if they will do this. It depends on how busy the builder is. It would really just require a simple hand-written note/addendum signed/initialed by the builder directly on your contract to be valid. Something like, "Final 10% to be paid upon buyer's acceptance after completion".

While you are at it, I would also specify that the builder will do a final walk-through inspection with you after the pool is totally completed. My builder never did this and it caused issues. My pool ended up failing county inspection on several issues which I ended up having to remediate myself because the builder considered the job done and more importantly because I had already paid them 100%.

You never know though it could also make the builder's radar go off that you are trouble and he declines. Sad thing it is a seller's market so builders can dictate pretty much whatever terms they want.

 

[ajw22]

Makes sense. "At completion of ________________" is reasonable?

Define "completion":

• Water in pool
• all contracted equipment operational
• pass all required inspections
• Any "Pool School" completed?
• All pool startup contracted for completed
• Punch list of cosmetic items completed?

How picky will you be on cosmetic items? Plaster mottling? Tile or grout inconsistencies? Stains on deck?

A payment schedule needs to be negotiated. You need to show the builder that you will be reasonable on what small issues you will accept. Have a discussion about quality standards and document it in the contract.

Money and retainage is the only lever you have to keep the builder focused on your project and satisfaction.

 

[CoachAlex]

Define "completion":

• Water in pool
• all contracted equipment operational
• pass all required inspections
• Any "Pool School" completed?
• All pool startup contracted for completed
• Punch list of cosmetic items completed?

How picky will you be on cosmetic items? Plaster mottling? Tile or grout inconsistencies? Stains on deck?

A payment schedule needs to be negotiated. You need to show the builder that you will be reasonable on what small issues you will accept. Have a discussion about quality standards and document it in the contract.

Money and retainage is the only lever you have to keep the builder focused on your project and satisfaction.

Great commentary. There will be minor cosmetic issues ; such as grout , minor plaster landing on coping , decking not aligned …

 

[Bluedart]

Looks like #1 is getting 110%

 

[Furiousss]

Looks like #1 is getting 110%

Goofy (greedy) tactic on their part, IMO.

10% down.

Then, of remaining cost:

40% at start of excavation
30% at start of gunite
20% at start of deck forming
10% at start of interior finish

 

[HermanTX]

Goofy (greedy) tactic on their part, IMO.

10% down.

Then, of remaining cost:

40% at start of excavation
30% at start of gunite
20% at start of deck forming
10% at start of interior finish

Hopefully you can reach agreement that it is a full 10% upon completion of pool, deck, etc, pool is full of water, pump, filter, heater, etc all working, all punch list items completed.