Indoor, in ground pool high combined chlorine

[i_intub8_u]

This might be due to either chloroform or nitrogen trichloride or some other chemical produced that is either a gas or easily volatilized depending on the type of molecule in the water.

You might have some nitrogen and some carbon based chemicals, but you will need a lab to find out.

Waiting to find out from the lab if they can test for trihalomethanes, etc. on Monday. In the meantime, I’ll continue to SLAM.

 

[JamesW]

Make sure to have good ventilation in the room.

I would not drink this water.

Do you have a different source of drinking water?

Can you get a K-1766 salt test kit and see what the salt test reveals?

Get a pot of water and boil off the water and then show what is left in the pot.

You can do a bucket test where you get a 5 gallon bucket and add a lot of chlorine like maybe 100 ppm and then see if it all gets used up or if the CC remains.

1 oz of 6% bleach in 5 gallons is about 100 ppm.

If the CC remains, then you can add another 100 ppm to see where the CC finally breaks.

If the CC breaks at 100 ppm, you can try 50 ppm.

This will help you determine the total amount of chlorine you will need to break down all of the chemical in the water.

 

[DavidLast]

Based on practical experience, and it has been a long time, I can't recall if CC used to climb. memory seems to suggest it may have. It takes a lot of chlorine to finally break to chlorinate an iron pool.

Chlorine is a weak oxidiser and a great sanitiser. @JamesW is it worth considering an alternative oxidiser for this initial clean up?

 

[JamesW]

is it worth considering an alternative oxidiser for this initial clean up?

Without knowing what the contaminant is, it is hard to tell what would be the most effective way to get it removed.

I think that UV would be helpful.

The other alternatives are hydrogen peroxide, MPS and ozone.

I do not know if any of these would be useful or just a waste of money.

Without knowing the exact chemicals that we are dealing with, we are just guessing at what might work.

If the chlorine is getting used up, then it is probably oxidizing the chemicals, but we do not know how much total chemical or chemicals are in the water.

A bucket test would help.

Chlorine dioxide might work, but this is not typically used and you would probably not find anyone locally that would be able to do this.

Maybe some type of commercial grade filtration with granular activated carbon or even RO treatment would work.

Some places have a RO commercial treatment that will show up and treat the entire pool.

However the services are very limited to specific areas.

Pool Filtration Reverse Osmosis Systems

Pool Filtration Reverse Osmosis Systems by Aqua Clear Water Treatment Specialists an oem manufacture of reverse osmosis and water treatment equipment.

www.watertreatmentspecialists.com

 

[i_intub8_u]

Make sure to have good ventilation in the room.

I would not drink this water.

Do you have a different source of drinking water?

Can you get a K-1766 salt test kit and see what the salt test reveals?

Get a pot of water and boil off the water and then show what is left in the pot.

You can do a bucket test where you get a 5 gallon bucket and add a lot of chlorine like maybe 100 ppm and then see if it all gets used up or if the CC remains.

1 oz of 6% bleach in 5 gallons is about 100 ppm.

If the CC remains, then you can add another 100 ppm to see where the CC finally breaks.

If the CC breaks at 100 ppm, you can try 50 ppm.

This will help you determine the total amount of chlorine you will need to break down all of the chemical in the water.

I’m drinking bottled water and not cooking with the water for now. I’ll try the bucket test here this afternoon.

I do know the iron levels in my well water are extremely high. Could it just be the high iron levels that are the problem?

 

[JamesW]

Could it just be the high iron levels that are the problem?

The iron gets oxidized quickly and it does not combine with the chlorine, so it is not the cause of the CCs.

The iron is mostly a cosmetic issue because it stains everything, but it is not causing any adverse effects other than cosmetic stains.

 

[DavidLast]

Yeah, it's a shame chlorine dioxide isn't readily available. It would likely be a faster clean-up.

RO could work, but the reject rate is usually very high, meaning a lot of top-up water may be required. Even if batching, we still get rejected in the 70% range, although they may be using 'looser' membranes.

 

[JamesW]

Compounds of iron in the +2 state are designated ferrous.

If the water is green, then the iron is probably iron II.

As the iron gets further oxidized to iron III, the iron complexes and becomes insoluble and it creates the brown, orange and yellow stains.

Compounds of iron in the +3 state are called ferric and contain the Fe3+ ion, which is yellow to orange to brown, depending on the compounds formed.

Iron will usually form ferrous oxide (FeO) or ferric oxide (Fe2O3).

Iron is typically oxidized to +2 or +3 and that is all for the iron in a pool.

Iron electron configuration will be 1s2 2s2 2p6 3s2 3p6 3d6 4s2

For the Fe2+ ion we remove two electrons from 4s2 leaving us with:

1s2 2s2 2p6 3s2 3p6 3d6

For the Fe3+ ion we remove a total of three electrons (two from the 4s2 and one form the 3d6) leaving us with

1s2 2s2 2p6 3s2 3p6 3d5

 

[JamesW]

There is a Ferrate(VI), which is an anion with the chemical formula [FeO₄]²⁻.

The iron is oxidized to +6, but this is not going to happen in the pool.

Ferrate(VI) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ferrates are strong oxidizers and might even be able to treat organics and other problems like cryptosporidium.

Ferrates

Has anyone heard about using ferrates for water treatment? This company seems to have some interesting technology. The patent claims that it can be used for treating swimming pool water. The device of the present invention can be fitted to any swimming pool or Jacuzzi such that the ferrate...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[i_intub8_u]

I boiled a small amount of the pool water. Attached are pictures of the dry pot. It just looks like salt residue to me—although who knows if it’s NaCl or some other salt. It’s a whitish salt residue. No other clumps or anything else. There were no other discolorations or anything odd when I boiled it. No weird fumes or odors.

I also did a bucket test. In a 5 gallon bucket, I added 2.5 gallons of the pool water. I added 1oz of the 12.5% bleach (I figured it would take a lot). I got a FC of 12 and a CC of 7. I swirled the bucket to mix and let it sit for 10 minutes before taking the sample. Do I need to wait longer?

I’m going to add another 1oz here and test again.

 

[DavidLast]

I would wait a while longer. Perhaps as long as a day. You can try testing in 4 hours and see what the bucket tests are then. Sometimes with water things take a while.

 

[JamesW]

In a 5 gallon bucket, I added 2.5 gallons of the pool water. I added 1oz of the 12.5% bleach (I figured it would take a lot). I got a FC of 12 and a CC of 7. I swirled the bucket to mix and let it sit for 10 minutes before taking the sample.

That should have produced about 391 ppm of FC.

That is a lot of FC getting used up.

Maybe the liquid chlorine is not full strength?

Try this.

get 1 oz (29.6 ml) of the 12.5% bleach and put it into 9 oz of distilled water and mix.

You will then have 10 oz of 1.25% solution.

Then take 1 oz of the mixed solution and put it into 2.5 gallons of pool water and you should get 39 ppm.

Also, take 0.4 oz (12 ml) and put it into 1 gallon of distilled water and you should get the same number (39 ppm) to confirm that the bleach is the correct strength.

 

[i_intub8_u]

That should have produced about 391 ppm of FC.

That is a lot of FC getting used up.

Maybe the liquid chlorine is not full strength?

Try this.

get 1 oz (29.6 ml) of the 12.5% bleach and put it into 9 oz of distilled water and mix.

You will then have 10 oz of 1.25% solution.

Then take 1 oz of the mixed solution and put it into 2.5 gallons of pool water and you should get 39 ppm.

Also, take 0.4 oz (12 ml) and put it into 1 gallon of distilled water and you should get the same number (39 ppm) to confirm that the bleach is the correct strength.

But how am I testing the dilutions to verify I get 39ppm? With my reagents I guess? I’ve used various sources of bleach—first from Walmart and Sam’s club, and now from Fleet Farm. They are all in date, I can’t imagine the 30 or so gallons of bleach I’ve used are all not good.

 

[JamesW]

But how am I testing the dilutions to verify I get 39ppm? With my reagents I guess?

Yes.

The addition of 0.4 oz to the 1 gallon of distilled water should produce 39 ppm FC and zero CC.

The addition of 1 oz to 2.5 gallons of pool water should produce 39 ppm TC, which is a combination of FC and CC.

Some will get used up.

Test again after 30 minutes and then add another 1 oz and so on until the FC begins to hold with no CC.

 

[JamesW]

You can test using a 5 ml sample to get 1 drop = 1 ppm to save reagent.

 

[i_intub8_u]

Yes.

The addition of 0.4 oz to the 1 gallon of distilled water should produce 39 ppm FC and zero CC.

The addition of 1 oz to 2.5 gallons of pool water should produce 39 ppm TC, which is a combination of FC and CC.

Some will get used up.

Test again after 30 minutes and then add another 1 oz and so on until the FC begins to hold with no CC.

Before I read this, I had added another 1/2oz (15 ml) of the 12.5% bleach to the existing 2.5gal pool water (that I had added the 1oz of 12.5% to earlier).

I got FC 7 and CC 18 (I tested used 5ml of water as you suggested, but I still added 5 drops of R-0003, should I have only added 2.5 drops? If so, maybe the CC result isn’t accurate?). The testing was 2 hours after adding the additional 1/2oz of 12.5%.

But what I’m confused by is you said when I added the first 1oz of 12.5% chlorine to the 2.5gal that would put the FC at 391. I added another 0.5oz, so that would put the FC to 587ppm total? But I’m only getting 7+18=25ppm of TC on testing? Where’s all the rest of the chlorine?

I’ll get distilled water tomorrow.

 

[JamesW]

1 oz should have created 391 ppm.

Maybe the liquid chlorine is not full strength?

Maybe a test error?

The reagent could be bleaching out.

Maybe the chlorine is getting used up reacting to the contamination.

Try the tests as described.

 

[i_intub8_u]

1 oz should have created 391 ppm.

Maybe the liquid chlorine is not full strength?

Maybe a test error?

The reagent could be bleaching out.

Maybe the chlorine is getting used up reacting to the contamination.

Try the tests as described.

The 2.5gal bucket must have been bleaching out.

I tested the 12.5% bleach by taking 0.4 oz of the bleach and adding it to 1 gallon of distilled water.

It tested for 37ppm FC using 1 drop=1ppm to 5ml sample. It didn’t turn red after adding R-0003 so no CCs (as expected). So at least the bleach seems to be 12.5% (or close to it) as it says it is.

I didn’t test another 2.5 gal bucket because I didn’t want to waste another 40 drops of reagent.

I did test the pool again after SLAMing it 3 times today. The latest is:

FC 1.5
CC 5.5

Earlier today is was
FC 1
CC 3

So I’m hopeful we are finally getting to (or past) the breaking point of the CCs!

The lab should get back to me tomorrow about testing for contaminants. And they are coming to take a pool water, pool fill source, and filtered tap water samples and test for their “regular pool monthly tests” tomorrow.

Thoughts?

 

[JamesW]

I tested the 12.5% bleach by taking 0.4 oz of the bleach and adding it to 1 gallon of distilled water.

12.5% or 1.25%?

 

[i_intub8_u]

12.5% or 1.25%?

1.25%. I made the 10oz dilution first. And added 0.4oz to a gallon of distilled water. Sorry I wasn’t specific there.