Heater issue?

A note about meter and pipe sizing.

Meters and pipes are sized for a specific volume flow at a specific pressure drop.

The more flow you put through a meter or a line, the more the pressure drops.

The typical pressure is 0.25 psi, which is 6.9” w.c.

The maximum “Low Pressure” is 0.5 psi (8 ounces per square inch), which is 13.8” w.c.

There is also 2 psi "High Pressure" available from some utilities and that has its own design requirements.

For example, a 3/4” line at 2 psi can supply 500,000 btu/hr at 150 feet long at a pressure drop of 1 psi.

1 psi is 27.68” w.c, so you still have 27.68” w.c at the regulator near the heater for 2 psi (high pressure).

It looks like the OP's utility does not offer 2 psi service, but they can check if they think that that would be helpful.

For the AL-425 meter, there are three different ratings based on the allowable pressure drop.

425 CFH at a 0.5” w.c drop.

583 CFH at a 1” w.c pressure drop.

898 CFH at a 2” w.c pressure drop.

For 1.25” line, the pressure drop is about 5.00 milliinches per foot of pipe for a flow of 400 CFH.

So, the length of line that is acceptable depends on the allowable pressure drop.

If you allow a 500 milliinch drop (0.5” w.c), then the length is limited to 100 feet.

If the line is 150 feet, then the pressure drop is about 0.75" w.c, which is not too bad.

So, the 1.25" line would probably be fine and the pressure would not drop too low.

You could increase the pressure to 8" w.c and use 1.25" line for the entire run and it would probably give plenty of pressure without getting anywhere near the lower limit.

However, you don't want to go outside of the Installation manual unless you have an engineer approve of the plans.

If you allow a 1,000 milliinch drop (1” w.c) then the length can be up to 200 feet.

So, you need to know the minimum and maximum pressure requirements for all appliances that will be on the line.

You can’t set the pressure higher than the maximum on any appliance.

You can’t allow a total pressure drop that will result in the pressure at any appliance being less than the minimum.

For example the Avia 404 shows a range of 3.5 to 10.5” w.c.

If the pressure starts at 7” w.c, which is typical, you can allow up to 3.5” of total pressure drop across the meter and the line.

The total load is 66 + 75 + 400 = 541 cubic feet per hour.

So, the meter will have a 1” w.c drop at full flow.

This allows the 1.25” line to have up to 2.5” of drop (2,500 milliinch), which is 500 feet.

However, you never want to hit the limits of the range and you want to be at least 1” below the maximum and at least 1” above the minimum.

If you allow 1.5” w.c pressure drop, for the line, then that is 300 feet.

Most design guidelines use a 0.500” w.c (500 milliinches) pressure drop so that there is a lot of margin for error.

Once you go above 0.5” w.c drop, you have to be very careful about the design because you risk creating a situation where the pressure at the appliances is too low at full load.

The charts in the installation books use 0.5” w.c because they know that virtually no one is going to do the full engineering calculations.

Unless you have a Licensed Qualified Engineer do the design, you need to follow all installation guidelines.

If a manufacturer sees that the installation does not meet the book requirements, they will assume that the pressure was insufficient unless you can prove that the pressure was always good and you would need design plans stamped by a Licensed Engineer.

You also have to consider the minimum and maximum pressure requirements of all appliances.

You have to know the lowest high pressure and the highest low pressure.

For a meter, I think that allowing up to 1” is probably acceptable.

I think that 2” is probably excessive.

For lines that go to the heater, follow the manufacturer’s requirements unless you have plans stamped by an engineer.

In any case, it is always recommended that the heater be fully “Commissioned” after installation to ensure that it is functioning properly in all regards.

This serves as the official “Installation” date and it establishes the basic initial benchmarks at the beginning to prove that everything was installed correctly.

If there is a problem later, the initial readings can be compared to the newest readings for comparison.
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The code does not seem to specify the required pressure drop limit.

It gives several different sizing charts based on the pressure drop.

It looks like you could have a 3” pressure drop if the initial pressure is 8” w.c or higher.

The main requirement is that the minimum pressure be provided at full load.

In any case, the manufacturer specifies a design based on a 0.5" w.c drop and that is what should be used unless you have an engineer provide certified plans and probably get the manufacturer's approval.

402.1 General Considerations

Piping systems shall be of such size and so installed as to provide a supply of gas sufficient to meet the maximum demand and supply gas to each appliance inlet at not less than the minimum supply pressure required by the appliance.

_________________________________________
Gas Natural

Inlet Pressure Less than 2 psi

Pressure Drop 0.3 in. w.c.

Specific Gravity 0.60

_________________________________________

Gas Natural

Inlet Pressure Less than 2 psi

Pressure Drop 0.5 in. w.c.

Specific Gravity 0.60

_________________________________________

TABLE 402.4(3) SCHEDULE 40 METALLIC PIPE

Gas Natural

INTENDED USE: Initial supply pressure of 8.0 inches w.c. or greater.

Inlet Pressure Less than 2 psi

Pressure Drop 3.0 in. w.c.

Specific Gravity 0.60






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Did you already pay the person who ran the 1.25" line.

Are they a licensed plumber?

Did you get a permit and an inspection for this installation?

What do they say about not following the installation manual?

I would probably ask them to return any money since they did not do their job correctly.

No reason you should have to pay for a defective job.
 
The 1.25”gas line would probably work and it might be local code compliant depending on your local code.

Most likely, the pressure drop would be 0.75” wc, or less.

If the pressure starts at 7” wc and you get a 1” drop across the meter and a 0.75” drop across the line, then the pressure delivered to the heater would be 5.25”, which is within the specification.

If the pressure starts at 8” or higher, it looks like you might be allowed to have up to a 3” w.c pressure drop as long as the minimum appliance is met.

The manufacturer can dictate the gas pressure and volume delivery, but you could argue that they cannot dictate the gas supply plumbing.

The installation manual never actually says that the gas line sizing is a “Requirement”.

So, just because you did not meet the manufacturer’s specifications does not necessarily mean that they could use that as an excuse to deny a warranty.

As long as the gas line meets all local code and it delivers the gas pressure as specified in the manual, then the manufacturer cannot complain.

The main problem is that if the manufacturer decides that a warranty claim was caused by insufficient gas pressure and volume delivery, they can blame the plumbing.

If the plumbing meets their requirements, then they lose that option.

If the plumbing is smaller than they suggest, then it becomes your burden to prove that the pressure was always good and that the plumbing was adequate.

To prove that the gas pressure was always good, you might need to have a digital manometer with data logging capability to show what the pressure was at any time.

To prove that the plumbing was sufficient, they might want plans stamped by a licensed engineer.

Different manufacturers have different minimums like;

Avia = 3.5” w.c.

Mastertemp = 4.0” w.c.

Hayward = 4.5” w.c.

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5.4.1 General Considerations.

Gas piping systems shall be of such size and so installed as to provide a supply of gas sufficient to meet the maximum demand and supply gas to each appliance inlet at not less than the minimum supply pressure required by the appliance.

5.4.4 Allowable Pressure Drop.

The design pressure loss in any piping system under maximum probable flow conditions, from the point of delivery to the inlet connection of the appliance, shall be such that the supply pressure at the appliance is greater than or equal to the minimum pressure required by the appliance.

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The first plumber was an outfit that does the plumbing work for a big designer here in Pgh. So I don’t know how this clownfish didn’t know that a 1” pipe coming from the meter and branching off with a 1 1/4” pipe for the rest of the run wouldn’t work.

So yes, I’m getting all of the necessary information together to present to this &@$¥! to ask for a full or partial refund.
He’ll probably tell me to go pound salt, so I’ll have to figure out a way to press the issue further to get some type of satisfaction.
 
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5.4.1 General Considerations.

Gas piping systems shall be of such size and so installed as to provide a supply of gas sufficient to meet the maximum demand and supply gas to each appliance inlet at not less than the minimum supply pressure required by the appliance.

5.4.4 Allowable Pressure Drop.

The design pressure loss in any piping system under maximum probable flow conditions, from the point of delivery to the inlet connection of the appliance, shall be such that the supply pressure at the appliance is greater than or equal to the minimum pressure required by the appliance.

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Sounds like I should just have a dedicated pipe from meter to heater at 1 1/2”.
That way I don’t have to ask the gas co. to do anything differently, and hope the current plumber and gas co. will line up their efforts to meet the workaround you’ve concisely presented above.
 
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How far does the 1" line go before the heater line branches off?

Roughly 30-34’.

The 1” line comes from the meter to the furnace 66k and water tank 75k.

I’m now making the pool heater dedicated from meter to heater 1.5” at a 130’ run.
For a total load of 541 cubic feet per hour at 34 feet, the estimated pressure drop is 1.1" w.c through the first 1" pipe before the T.

If the 1.25" line to the heater is 130 feet, then that is another 0.65" w.c. for a total of 1.75" w.c total pressure drop.

The normal design pressure drop is 0.5" w.c for a 7" w.c low pressure delivery system.

That makes the installation pressure drop 3.5 times higher than it should be.

I would ask the plumber to explain their design and why they did it like they did.



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The first thing I would do is ask the plumber to explain their design.

When you have a job like this, the first thing you need to do is create a Design, Engineering and Architecture plan where you figure out exactly how the job should be done so that it works correctly and it meets all code and all of the manufacturer’s specifications.

If they did this, then they should be able to explain their design including why they made the choices they made and what the calculations were.

If they did not do this, then that is a major error and they should review the design as installed and evaluate it and give an analysis of the installation and they need to decide if it is code compliant or if it is not code compliant and they need to explain their analysis.
 
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Hi All - Season’s Freezings to all!

Anyhow, thought I’d give an update on our situation and what we’re doing.

First, here’s some pics of the yard after the artificial grass went in.
 

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So these are the first two pics of the pipe to heater.
I’ll preface by saying that the owner of plumbing co. was at my house when his guys came to switch out the pipe, has a pool, and recommended this course of action.

They changed the pipe from meter to 1.5”
Ran that to the laundry room where the 80k water tank and 66k furnace T off.
The 1.5” pipe continues for another 10’ and meets the 1 1/4” pipe that the original plumber put in.
From there, the 1 1/4” pipe runs 30’ through the ceiling of my garage as in pic, and comes out of the siding and down to the 400k heater.

So that’s a roughly 76’ run with 8-10 elbows.

Again, the owner of the company was on site and recommended this course of action.
 

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