Mixing acid and Baking soda in a Stenner ?
- Thread starter MaverickFL
- Start date
- Oct 16, 2016
- 52
- Pool Size
- 10000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Autopilot Digital Nano+ PPC2
Not really relevant to this thread whether CO2 outgassing lowers TA but I have provided some sources that back up the claim. If we stick solely with the reasons you posted we can still agree that the TA is going to drop and I'm back to the original reason for my post, looking for a way to keep the TA in check on more of a schedule. I think the discussion was good for convincing me that its not going to happen in the same Stenner as the acid, though it would have been convenient. So I'm looking at trying to accommodate another Stenner or continue doing it manually. The thing I like about the Stenner is the PH holds pretty solid on a daily basis. Its not pour a quarter gallon of acid and drop it into range and then proceed to climb back up on a daily basis. I'd like to incorporate this type of daily control over the TA as well.
CO2(g) + H2O <=> H+ + HCO3-
Carbon dioxide added creates an H+ ion and an HCO3- ion.
The H+ ion reduces the TA by the same amount as the HCO3- ion increases the TA.
So, the net result is zero change in TA.
When carbon dioxide is removed through aeration, you lose an H+ ion and a HCO3-.
So, again, the result is zero change in TA.
H+ + HCO3- <=> CO2(g) + H2O
Carbon dioxide added creates an H+ ion and an HCO3- ion.
The H+ ion reduces the TA by the same amount as the HCO3- ion increases the TA.
So, the net result is zero change in TA.
When carbon dioxide is removed through aeration, you lose an H+ ion and a HCO3-.
So, again, the result is zero change in TA.
H+ + HCO3- <=> CO2(g) + H2O
- Oct 16, 2016
- 52
- Pool Size
- 10000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Autopilot Digital Nano+ PPC2
We can agree to disagree on that, its not really relevant to the thread.
Maybe if you get a container that has a mixer built in to keep the baking soda mixed in the water, you can use a Stenner type dosing system to inject the baking soda, but you don't want to have the acid and baking soda dosed at the same time.
Many people use carbon dioxide to manage pH; is there any reason you don't want to use carbon dioxide?
Many people use carbon dioxide to manage pH; is there any reason you don't want to use carbon dioxide?
I think the point of the comments were that your TA should not be drifting down all that much if it’s in the right range to begin with. What value are you targeting? Your pH shouldn’t be drifting up if the TA is 50-60. Once the TA gets down to the 50 or 60 range you shouldn’t even need this stenner pump to dose the acid so much.
From the reference you provided.
www.aquamagazine.com
Using Air and Acid to Quickly Get Perfect pH/Alkalinity
You really can nail down pH and alkalinity using just air and muriatic acid.
www.aquamagazine.com
- Oct 16, 2016
- 52
- Pool Size
- 10000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Autopilot Digital Nano+ PPC2
No particular objection, other than it sounds expensive, I thought it was used more commercially but I'm going to do some research on it. Anyone here using this type of system for residential pool ?
It is actually very relevant to the thread.
If you are trying to understand the chemistry, it's important that you understand what is actually happening.
It's not common, but some people have used it.
www.troublefreepool.com
CO2 Setup
Hello Folks. A few months ago I finished my pool and always wanting to experiment with automation, I pull the trigger on a Intellichem with CO2 system. Per recommendation on this forum I'm not using it for chlorine control but only for pH control. I'm not to concerned about the additional...
www.troublefreepool.com
- Jun 1, 2018
- 13,959
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
He meant what TA value are you regularly targeting?
Flying Tivo
TFP Guide
- Jan 24, 2017
- 2,969
- Pool Size
- 7500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
If you know any home Beer Brewers they would easily point you where to buy CO2. The system is not that complicated. James pointed you to the right thread.
- Jan 7, 2012
- 1,525
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- 21000
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- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
@MaverickFL What TA are you targeting?
Consider letting your TA drift down as you manage pH with MA. Your TA and pH will settle where they're happy. A TA of 50 is perfectly fine, and your pH rise would be very small. Add both baking soda and MA, you'll be chasing your tail.
For a SWG pool, you rarely (maybe never) need to add baking soda. I've never added any in 13 years of pool ownership.
Consider letting your TA drift down as you manage pH with MA. Your TA and pH will settle where they're happy. A TA of 50 is perfectly fine, and your pH rise would be very small. Add both baking soda and MA, you'll be chasing your tail.
For a SWG pool, you rarely (maybe never) need to add baking soda. I've never added any in 13 years of pool ownership.
As long as the CSI is in the -0.3 to 0.0 range, you can allow the pH to go up to about 8.0 and the TA to go down to about 50, which should stop most pH rise and it should eliminate the need to add acid.
Maintaining the pH at 7.9 or 8.0 will usually require a pH meter to get an accurate read on the pH as the reagent test can begin to get difficult to read.
Maintaining the pH at 7.9 or 8.0 will usually require a pH meter to get an accurate read on the pH as the reagent test can begin to get difficult to read.
- Mar 5, 2020
- 3,128
- Pool Size
- 66000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V35
I wanted to ask which TA value are you aiming for? At which TA level do you add baking soda and to which level do you raise TA then?
- Sep 23, 2015
- 1,600
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V25
I have used CO2 to control pH in the past but that was in a calcium reactor. It would add a bunch of additional control parameters and possible failure points with a pH controller, probes to calibrate and replace, solenoid valves, regulator, tubing to replace, injection point and/or reactor, probe point and CO2 tanks to swap out for full ones. I wouldn’t add it to my pool but then I don’t have a water feature.
lve only Increased my TA once and that was after a major rain event. Normally I’m actively trying to reduce it rather then increase it. The vast majority of us have enough TA in our top up water. Have you measured your tap waters TA?
lve only Increased my TA once and that was after a major rain event. Normally I’m actively trying to reduce it rather then increase it. The vast majority of us have enough TA in our top up water. Have you measured your tap waters TA?
- Oct 16, 2016
- 52
- Pool Size
- 10000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Autopilot Digital Nano+ PPC2
I'll start by saying I'm reconsidering everything at this point based on the feedback received above and the change in season.
During the 'swim' season, which for me ended this week since I don't have a heater, with water temps from 80-88 I like to keep the PH around 7.7/7.8, Stabilizer around 50, salt 3500-4000 and play everything else off that to keep LSI in range. I had been hesitant to bump the CH up over 400 because I'm not that experienced with pool chemistry and its a pain in the Rear to bring back down vs. other chems. I would prefer to keep my LSI on the plus side between 0-+30 because its where I feel comfortable against chemistry 'mistakes'. All that said, with CH under 400 I have needed need my TA around 100 or higher to keep that balance and that's what I've been aiming for., I try not to let it go below 80/90 before bringing it back up, which, with all the other variables being discussed has been close to weekly/semi-weekly.
If I bump my CH up closer to 500 then lower target TAs fit better. From everything I've read a PH of 8 or higher has the potential to cause skin problems in those who are sensitive so I'd prefer not to go above 7.8 in the swim season but... from now through April I can put the PH as high as I want to test out some of these theories and see if I can slow the acid consumption and the TA drift and maybe kill the need for any automation related to the TA.
- Oct 16, 2016
- 52
- Pool Size
- 10000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Autopilot Digital Nano+ PPC2
James, I see PH meters range from under $100 to up close to $500. Obviously I'd prefer the lower end of the range but don't want junk thats going to cause me more problems. Do you have a recommendation ?
The Apera PH60 or PC60 are good.
aperainst.com
aperainst.com
PH60 Premium Digital Pocket Waterproof pH Meter pH Pen Tester Kit with Replaceable Probe and Backlight-Apera Instruments
The Apera Instruments PH60 Premium Digital Pocket pH Meter / pH Pen Tester is ideal for all kinds of regular aqueous solution's testing, such as hydroponics, aquaculture, pools& spas, water treatment, cooling towers, etc. Can be replaced with ORP probe.
aperainst.com
PC60 Premium Multiparameter (pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature) Pocket Tester/Meter Kit-Apera Instruments
The Apera Instruments PC60 Multi-parameter Tester/Meter simply tests pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature for regular aqueous solutions such as hydroponics, aquaculture, pools& spas, tap/drinking water, water treatment, cooling towers, etc.
aperainst.com
The TA is the problem in that case. If you let your TA drift down to 60ppm your pH rise will significantly slow and drop. I’m not familiar with the differences between CSI and LSI so would need to let someone else deal with rhat. Assuming they are closely related I keep my CSI very close to zero while maintaining a TA of 60 and pH of 7.8.