Yet another 2 Speed Automation question

[jblizzle]

Sorry to kind of hijack ... but we are asking the same questions I think
Split off from this topic. If the thought of hijacking is even remotely present, please start a new topic. JasonLion

OK. So given that I have a single pump (probably soon to be 2-speed) ... that would use 2 of the 4 relays in a PS4 and I would have to setup something to realize that one of the AUX relays in low speed. I could put my light on a 3rd relay and then have 1 left for something else. Correct?

I am pretty sure I got an email from a Tech at Hayward that said something about having to use one of the AUX relays if I wanted to separate the 2 valve actuators that are typically slaved together (suction/return) for a pool/spa combo ... although I still do not understand that.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Another 2 Speed Automation question

Thanks for the info (although I can not interpret the diagram yet :? ). I do not actually own an automation system yet ... trying to decide between the P4, PS4 ... and whether I foresee any need for the PS8.

The P4 vs PS4 still is a bit confusing ... P4 only has 3 valves controls instead of 4, but I think the PS4 has more programming capabilities as well.

 

[JasonLion]

OK. So given that I have a single pump (probably soon to be 2-speed) ... that would use 2 of the 4 relays in a PS4 and I would have to setup something to realize that one of the AUX relays in low speed. I could put my light on a 3rd relay and then have 1 left for something else. Correct?

Correct.

I am pretty sure I got an email from a Tech at Hayward that said something about having to use one of the AUX relays if I wanted to separate the 2 valve actuators that are typically slaved together (suction/return) for a pool/spa combo ... although I still do not understand that.

Two of the valve actuators are hardwired to both switch at the same time. You can't "split" them, but you can get an adapter that allows a high voltage relay control an additional valve actuator, so in some sense that is the same thing.

The PS4 is somewhat more flexible. How important that is depends very much on the complexity of your setup. Many people end up wishing they had more relays, but that doesn't always happen. If you can afford it and have any possibility of expanding your setup in the future it is usually worth getting the larger system to start with. That said, the P4 is more than enough for a simple setup.

 

[jblizzle]

Sorry about that ... I though we were discussing the same thing ... although I guess I did derail a bit.

Is it also true that in the P4 2 of the 3 valves are slaved together? Seems silly since that is more marketed for a pool OR spa setup I thought where having them slaved makes absolutely no sense to me.

Is the solar actuator separate or one of the 3 also?

In my emails with Hayward it was also mentioned that the P4 could not control the 4.00 Colorlogic light accessories (not that I have them). And the PS also adds the ability for multiple sets of equipment ... it just does not seem like there is a good option for a simple pool only setup.

I agree I could probably get by with the P4, but basically I would be able to only use 2 valve actuators (since I don't need 2 slaved together) unless I wanted to use two AUX relays to then control 3 valves ... but then after a 2-speed pump I am out of relays (no ability for lights, etc).

From what I can tell, these options seems like they were designed by someone without a pool and no concept of what the consumer would want ... let me decide if I want actuators slaved together that does not see too hard :x

 

[JasonLion]

What exactly are you trying to control? It is fairly unusual for a "simple pool" to need even two valve actuators. Make a list of exactly what you are trying to do and get a system that does that and has at least once spare relay beyond that.

The available options are driven by what is popular and what is affordable to include. Pool/spa combos are the primary market for these systems. It is much less expensive for them to put two plugs on a single relay than to have two separate relays, and that works for most people so that is what they do in their baseline system. As you move up the line you can control more stuff.

The main problem is that they don't really make the limitations and tradeoffs clear in their marketing materials. They assume that a pool builder who is already very familiar with the system will be picking the appropriate system for their client. They could do a lot better at explaining these things in order to address the DIY market.

 

[jblizzle]

The main problem is that they don't really make the limitations and tradeoffs clear in their marketing materials. They assume that a pool builder who is already very familiar with the system will be picking the appropriate system for their client. They could do a lot better at explaining these things in order to address the DIY market.

This is exactly what has gotten me frustrated. Lack of info. I mean the P4 is market for pool OR spa only ... do you have an example why I would want slaved actuators on a single body of water?

Here is what I got ...:

Valves:
1. Solar (does this count as a valve or have its own control ... all specs say 3/4 valves + 4/8 relays + 1/2 heater + solar)
2. Waterfall
3. Bench seat jets (optional)

Right there if I wanted all 3 ... the P4 is out as I think it only controls 3 valves and 2 are slaved.

Relays:
1&2: 2 speed pump
3: Pool Light (even this is optional as there is a switch at the house)
? There a many landscaping lights, but again have switches at the house so it is just a "cool" factor
? In the future if we got a separate above ground hot tub ... would there be any need/desire to be able to control the pump/heater/etc from my pool panel? This is something I really do not understand ... since I have never had a hot tub like that.

Gas heater ... does that need a relay or is there a separate control for it?

So actually the P4 "could" work: Valves:1= water fall, 2= blank, 3=solar; Relay: 1/2=pump, 3=light, 4=bench jets valve (somehow) and then I am maxed out except for the worthless slaved valve.

With the PS4 I would have 1 slaved valve unused and 1 relay unused. So I guess are these plus the "additional flexibility" of the PS that I do not know about worth the $200 jump in cost from the P4? Are 4 additional relays that I do not know what I would use them for right now worth the $300+ jump from the PS4 to the PS8?

Thanks for you patience!!!

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Another 2 Speed Automation question

Anyone got a diagram similar to the one in this post for a 2-speed 115V pump?

I am thinking that a single breaker would be hooked to one side of 2 relays which would be the Low and High speed connections. And the Neutral and Ground from the pump would hook to the corresponding bus bars.

Basically the same as the grey power wires. I would not have the black power wires. And the common (neutral in my case) would hook to the N bar.

 

[JasonLion]

The wiring is exactly the same except at the breaker. As you said you have a single breaker for 115 volts which gives you the hot wire, and the neutral wire comes from the neutral bus bar. The neutral wire is the one that should go through the relays to the common wire on the pump, while the hot wire should go through the two relays to the high and low speed connections.

For your situation, I recommend the PS4. As you already guessed, solar takes one of your valve connections. The PS4 will give you a third valve connection so you can do the bench seat jets if you want, or add something else later. The other feature of the PS4, over the P4, is group commands, sort of macro programming, which most people don't use but which can be handy occasionally.

There isn't normally any point in controlling a stand alone hot tub from the pool automation system. They usually need to be on all the time anyway.

 

[Ohm_Boy]

There's no need to switch the neutral.
[attachment=0:1ftqsl7q]twospeed_120v.jpg[/attachment:1ftqsl7q]
Credit to the original author, and I apologize for the crude hacking-up job.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Re: Yet another 2 Speed Automation question

There's no need to switch the neutral.
[attachment=0:mesxsd3u]twospeed_120v.jpg[/attachment:mesxsd3u]
Credit to the original author, and I apologize for the crude hacking-up job.

That is exactly what I tried to describe. I suppose there is no harm in also switching the neutral, but no point ... just like a light switch.

 

[jblizzle]

So I have been reading through the P4 and PS4 manuals (and comparing them) and found this option in both

V1=Aux1, V2=Aux2
This menu appears only if the Pool/Spa Setup is “Pool Only” or “Spa Only”. When enabled, Valve 1
(return) will follow the Aux1 output and Valve 2 (suction) will follow the Aux2 output. When disabled
(default), the return and suction pool/spa valves function normally.

So that makes it sound like Valves 1 and 2 do NOT have to be slaved together if you choose "pool only" and instead they will follow the Aux1 and Aux2 commands.

But, I can not figure out what Aux1 and Aux2 are? I thought AUX referred to the high voltage relays or are there also low voltages outputs called Aux which can control the valve?

I would LOVE to see a nice photo of the inside of these Pro Logic boxes with the labels/etc ... would certainly make things clearer.

EDIT: After some more reading I may have answered my own question. Is it true that the 4 relays are labeled something like: Filter, Lights, Aux1, Aux2?

If so, then I guess to unslave the Valves 1&2, you have to use 2 of the 4 relays and with my 2-speed pump, all 4 are used up.

So, it seems to me that regardless of the system I get (P4/PS4) I probably need to use "pool AND spa" mode, but then only hook up 1 of the 2 slaved valves. That way I can control 2 or 3 valves for the P4 or PS4 respectively without using any relays. Otherwise, if I use "pool only" mode, seems like you MUST use an AUX relay to control Valve 1 or 2 or I would just be able to control Valve 3 with the P4 and Valves 3&4 with the PS4 when using no relays.

Clear as a pool converting from Baquacil to chlorine right :-D :?