Wire routing to motorized valve

[JamesW]

One of the most important concepts in agreements or contracts is “a meeting of the minds”, which is where all parties to an agreement know exactly what they are expected to do and what they are expected to receive.

You can buy a diamond ring at Tiffany’s or at WalMart.

At least for a car or a diamond or any other product, you can examine the product before hand and do a test drive and look up reviews in Consumer’s Reports.

For services, one of the biggest problems is that there is no “meeting of the minds” because the metrics and details are not specified.

What’s needed is a detailed specification sheet that goes into detail about exactly what is included, what’s not included, what’s extra, what the quality control and the tolerances are etc.

In the absence of detailed specifications, people have to make assumptions, which are rarely if ever going to be exactly the same for all parties.

With exact detailed specifications, all parties are on the same page and they can attempt negotiate to an agreement that all parties find acceptable.

 

[JamesW]

It would have taken a whopping 15 seconds to coil it nicely with zip ties at either end. It took them longer to wrap it around the pipe hand over hand pulling out the slack with each wrap. Being lazy with zero pride in their work was *more* difficult here.

Anytime I can so easily see a corner cut I’m suspect of anything that’s hidden. It’s at least that sloppy and maybe worse.

Suppose that you are a homeowner who needs a valve actuator replaced and you get a proposal from a service person:

1) Replace valve actuator. Does not include zip ties or other methods of securing the cable.

Labor.....$100.00.

2) Replace valve actuator. Does include zip ties or other methods of securing the cable to make the cable look nice and tidy.

Labor.....$150.00.

These are your choices.

It does not matter if you think that it’s an easy or fast job.

What matters is that these are the choices you are presented with and they are based on what the service person feels their time is worth.

What choice do you make?

The point is that the metrics are spelled out and the cost is also spelled out.

There’s no ambiguity.

Just like you can buy a diamond from Tiffany’s or Walmart depending on what matters to you.

 

[Newdude]

These are your choices.

It does not matter if you think that it’s an easy or fast job

Realistically speaking, it’s far more likely the PB charged full PB prices and sent the $15 an hour kid out for the easy stuff. The person doing it was not told to be sloppy due to the quote being less. The kid said ‘whatevs….. it’s off the ground’ and took longer being lazy than it would have taken to do it neatly. They buy their zip ties in bulk for 3 cents each. 10 of them wouldn’t have changed the bid.

 

[Newdude]

So 2 choices @coinmls,

Fire off an Email asking the PB if that is the quality work that commands them top dollar, specifically pointing out that they did use 3 zip ties on the flex conduit and a few more would have made a world of difference,

Or

If you/friend/family member are the least bit handy, fix it yourself and save the aggravation. No need to make a mountain out of a molehill here. Pick your battles and save it for something more important.

 

[JamesW]

There are 3 zones of quality.

1 is obviously poor quality.

2 is a matter of subjective opinion.

3 is obviously unnecessary tolerance.

For example, a pool that is out of level by 3” is obviously poor quality.

A tolerance of 1 mm is obviously unnecessary.

However, what about 1/4 or 1/2” or 3/4” or 1”?

The builder and homeowner might disagree.

This is why it’s important for a builder to specify these things.

If they say that their standard is 1/2”, then there is no ambiguity.

When people are left to make assumptions, that’s when things go wrong.

Beyond quality specifications, you also have included and not included items.

You buy a coffee at Starbuck’s and you assumed that it would contain cinnamon and nutmeg, but they tell you that those are $1.00 extra each.

If the menu says that those are $1.00 each, then you can decide if it’s worth it to you to pay the extra or not.

Some people will pay and some will not, but there is no misunderstanding.

It does not matter if you think that the price is too high.

If you don’t think that it is worth the extra money, don’t buy it.

The problem comes when the buyer and seller are not clear about what their expectations are.

If you’re not sure, then ask what is included or not included.

The seller should be as clear as possible about everything including all quality, all included, all not included, all timeframes, all extras etc.

In my opinion, the wire is a matter of subjective opinion.

The builder should have specified their standards and the homeowner should also have specified their standards to make sure that they were on the same page.

 

[Newdude]

In my opinion, the wire is a matter of subjective opinion.

The builder should have specified their standards and the homeowner should also have specified their standards to make sure that they were on the same page.

Agreed 100%. And $20 says the builder doesn’t think it reflects his standards either, because most likely he left it to other people.

 

[JamesW]

If I was to assign blame for the customer being disappointed, I would blame the builder, but not necessarily because the work is poor quality, but because they did not manage customer expectations, which would be easy to do.

The builder can post pictures of their work in all regards and videos where someone walks the job and points out how they do things.

If they post 20 pictures and videos of their work and all show neatly ziptied wires, then that is what you can expect and you have recourse if your job is not done like that.

However, if 20 pictures and videos all show the wires not meticulously ziptied, then you have no recourse because that was shown as their standard of workmanship.

There is no ambiguity.

Also, if you see something you don’t like, you can ask if it can be done to how you like it and the company can agree and give a price or they can say they don’t, or won’t, do it.

Overall, it’s really the seller’s job to specify their product and not necessarily the buyer’s duty to ask every detail.

However, if the seller does not provide enough specifications, then it is incumbent on the buyer to inquire until they are satisfied.

You can’t just make assumptions and then complain when the assumptions are not met unless the quality is in the obviously poor category and even that is open to opinion.

 

[JamesW]

Agreed 100%. And $20 says the builder doesn’t think it reflects his standards either, because most likely he left it to other people.

The builder should post pictures of all of their work.

That way, there is no doubt.

If the builder feels embarrassed about the quality, then they will probably fix it.

They should not do any work that they are not willing to post as work they are proud of.

If they feel that the work is fine, then they can be judged on the actual quality.

 

[Newdude]

The builder should post pictures of all of their work.

That way, there is no doubt

C’mon MAN !!! You’re killing me.


Your lessons in managing expectations are SPOT on, but you know darn well they don’t apply here. The PB is too busy making quotes and scheduling subs to get dirty with small potatoes. Even with a small Mom/Pop operation, the 22 year old son or nephew would have been in charge of this. Or the same goes for the master electrician who was used. With a large builder, one of the service techs got deputized to change the actuator. Their ‘best guy’ I’m sure. With 2 seasons experience.

Chances are either the PB or electrician have no clue it was left how it was and would be embarrassed if it was brought to their attention. Then they’d have some excuse that the worker didn’t know if they’d need the slack so he left it like that temporarily.

Like I said above @coinmls, it’s an easy fix one way or the other and if this is the worst thing that happened the other day, we all got off lucky. Frustrating for you, sure. But sign me up for that as my main ‘screwup’ when they build my pool. Any day of the week.

 

[JamesW]

Lots of service people do YouTube videos showing their work.

There is no reason that everyone cannot do a simple video describing their work product.

Every service person and builder should have standards, they need to publish those standards, they need to have a quality control program to ensure that those standards are met and they need to publish their actual results as statistics about how well they meet their published standards.

For example, if they say that their maximum out of level is +/- 3/8", they should publish the actual data showing the measurements for their actual jobs including statistical measures like mean, median, standard deviation and how many were out of spec and what was done for the out of spec job.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Sorry for the late response to the question regarding the two pictures I posted. The gas valve handle was off in the closed position and the handle was secured close by for inspection by the city. The filter cover was custom made by a friend of mine out of boat upholstery, he was going to make a business out of it but backed out, the SWG has a cover on it also, the filter cover is 3 years old and still looks like new and the filter itself looks like the day it came out of the box.
As far as the comments regarding standards, I have posted many pictures on the site of the same quality work in different areas of pool construction and this is the standard I hold to the contractors that work with my owner builder customers. I have found that quality workers stick together and like to work behind other quality workers.

 

[griffths]

From my days as a project manager.......

 

[BritDan]

I might not be good, but I am slow.