Why so much dislike for Flocculent?

[Jmanb13]

Long time lurker, rare poster.

I was doing some reading through various old posts her and it seems like there is a general dislike for things like flocculent and clarifier. Why is everyone so against it? Does it do something bad to the pool? Is it more of a money/time thing?

I ask, because I recently tried out flocculent for the first time due to having a couple major storms that flooded some serious amounts of water and dirt into my pool, and I was getting tired of waiting for it to clear it up.

All season i have been running a amazingly clear pool and chemistry has been amazing. I have only had to adjust the PH 1 time (before this issue) the whole season. The only thing I have had to do was add a gallon of bleach each day to maintain chlorine levels.

However, about a month ago I had a pretty good rain storm that washed a ton of dirt into the pool and made it look like a pond. Outside of having to adjust the PH a little bit, everything was still good from the chemical perspective. I ran the filter/pump 24/7 to try and clear out the pool. It took a solid week and a half before it looked even remotely clear. Then we had another major rain and it did the same thing. I didn't want to wait to wait another week and a half to clear the pool so I put some flocculent in the other day and it worked great! The pictures below are 36 hours apart. The only time I had to spend was about 30 minutes vacuuming the floor 2 separate times.

If the difference between having a gross pool for almost 2 weeks (more if you have another storm) and $15-20 for flocculent and an hour of labor. I'd take the 2nd choice any day. Also its not like running a pool pump 24/7 for 2 weeks is free.

 

[pookiesunshine]

non responsive to your question, but man, i think i would rather see a green swamp than that ugly brown. even if i did know it was only dirt. good job cleaning it up.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

It's not dislike so much as teaching people universal methods for cleaning up a pool. Even if we avoid all of the chemical discussions of flocs there is one simple fact - they are not universally applicable. You can only use a floc when you have the ability to vacuum to waste because it must be removed from the water. As well, many people live in places and climates where water replacement is expensive and so losing a few inches of water to vacuuming can get very costly.

So why not use a clarifier? Sure, you can use a polymeric clarifier but again, why bother? There are other ways to clarify a pool if you have a sand filter - add DE to the filter. Doing this will clarify the water very well without any chemical side effects.

Point is, 99.9% of the time clarifiers & flocs are unnecessary. TFP tries to teach methods that work 99.9% of the time....

 

[Demegrad9]

I'd like to hear some responses here on this one.

I think one of the main reasons you see it not recommended is because so many people come here to the forum that believe their issue is just that they have a 'cloudy pool' and they don't want to admit it to themselves that they need to SLAM because to them it doesn't look bad, just a little 'cloudy'. So they want to use a clarifier but people here tell them not to because it's not going to do anything for the algae that is taking hold.

With that said, I can tell you flocculents do work in the sense that they do what they're supposed to do, i.e. bind stuff together to make it easier to filter, I haven't ever run into the situation where I thought about using one but I'm interested in hearing what people think, are they bad for your pool?

 

[Demegrad9]

I have a bottle of clarifier in my pump room from the previous owners, I guess I can throw it out with confidence now.

And looks like I should buy some DE!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

....

With that said, I can tell you flocculents do work in the sense that they do what they're supposed to do, i.e. bind stuff together to make it easier to filter, I haven't ever run into the situation where I thought about using one but I'm interested in hearing what people think, are they bad for your pool?

Yes, they do work...when they are properly applied and dosed. One of the other problems is pool owners don't always read labels and sometimes just do whatever the pool store tells them to do. That can be a huge problem because -

(A) If you overdose a floc ("gee, a little is good so A LOT MUST BE better!") then you will get the reverse effect - the floc will actually act as a dispersant and cause a huge cloudy mess; OR

(B) If you vacuum it up into the filter, you will clog up a filter and cause yourself a nightmare filter clean up job.

There are plenty of chemicals "that work great", like sodium bromide or copper to kill algae. But just because you can use something doesn't mean you should use it. As for what it adds to the water, many flocs are based on aluminum or ferric sulfate and will leave sulfates behind in the pool water (there are poly-aluminum chloride flocs which are safer but harder to dose correctly). Sulfates are bad for plaster and SWGs.

Again, it's about teaching people methods that will work for the most number of pool owners and teaching them methods that are "trouble free". Flocs fail on both accounts.

 

[Jmanb13]

It's not dislike so much as teaching people universal methods for cleaning up a pool. Even if we avoid all of the chemical discussions of flocs there is one simple fact - they are not universally applicable. You can only use a floc when you have the ability to vacuum to waste because it must be removed from the water. As well, many people live in places and climates where water replacement is expensive and so losing a few inches of water to vacuuming can get very costly.

So why not use a clarifier? Sure, you can use a polymeric clarifier but again, why bother? There are other ways to clarify a pool if you have a sand filter - add DE to the filter. Doing this will clarify the water very well without any chemical side effects.

Point is, 99.9% of the time clarifiers & flocs are unnecessary. TFP tries to teach methods that work 99.9% of the time....

That makes sense. Most of the people that come to here looking for help are very inexperienced in general with all the chemicals and what the purpose of the different products actually do, so adding extra things like flocculents and clarifiers to the mix doesn't really help in this since.
I always love going to the pool store and seeing walls of different chemicals that all say they will make your pool amazing, but no real information around what they do. Not to mention many of them don't do much of anything except drain your wallet.

I'd like to hear some responses here on this one.

I think one of the main reasons you see it not recommended is because so many people come here to the forum that believe their issue is just that they have a 'cloudy pool' and they don't want to admit it to themselves that they need to SLAM because to them it doesn't look bad, just a little 'cloudy'. So they want to use a clarifier but people here tell them not to because it's not going to do anything for the algae that is taking hold.

I can definitely see this. I always get a kick out of reading some reviews on walmart/home depot about super basic things like liquid chlorine and pool filter sand. They say things like don't use this product it will make your pool cloudy....*facepalm*

I specifically used the flocculent because I knew exactly what it was supposed to do. Bind to the dirt and particulates (not live algae) and make it fall to the floor. Knowing that I already had a properly running chemical setup and that all I needed was something that would get the dirt out of suspension as fast as possible, led me to use the floc.

 

[Swampwoman]

I think there are times when floc is indicated and makes sense -- your situation is an excellent example Another time is when a broken lateral or using incorrect sand size has caused silt back into the pool and it won't drop.

The problem with advocating it is that as guides we can't always identify the variables; its kind of an "advanced class" to determine if its actually indicated, and if it fails to drop -- as it often does due to incorrect ph, the presence of algae or other factors -- as guides we then have no method to recommend for cleanup. Failed floc in a swamp is a floating, scummy mess that can disable a filter...the last thing anyone needs while recovering a pool

 

[Donldson]

Agree with above, but there is something less obvious to it as well. For many, their first introduction to TFP is because of a green pool. They have been on the pool store train for years and are taking their first step in to doing things themselves and discovering TFPC. As such, the SLAM is not just about clearing their green pool, it is where they learn the core concepts that are going to help them take control of their pool permanently. Testing, dosing, Pool Owner Patience, and starting to get a feel for managing their pool correctly. Learning about the basic chemicals like bleach and muriatic acid, chemicals they have probably never used before but will make up the core of their pool care. There is so much to learn and that first SLAM is a perfect primer to the entire TFP system!

Floc is a useful product, I won't deny that. But it is also can cause a lot of problems and even when used correctly might only be masking an underlying problem. Identifying when it might be a reasonable option is an advanced skill, one I wouldn't try doing unless I was caring for the pool myself, so I would not ever offer it as an option here. If someone can't stay with their green pool and clear it without resorting to floc then I wouldn't trust them to use floc in the first place. Obviously your situation was not a typical green pool, but you are also versed enough in your pool care to recognize that. When it comes to the pools that we are responsible for, we get to make the decision what shortcuts to attempt or not attempt. We also get to be responsible for the mistakes we make, and heaven knows I have made my share and I will make plenty more. But advising someone to take a potentially dangerous shortcut is not something I am going to do. For someone new that hasn't even discovered that bleach is the same as liquid chlorine yet, that goes doubly so. Wax on, wax off.

 

[Swampwoman]

+1

 

[catman37]

Hi.

Just reading through this....What is DE ?

 

[LFrankow]

DE stands for Diatomaceous Earth.

Pool School - Add DE to a Sand Filter

 

[Demegrad9]

Yes, they do work...when they are properly applied and dosed. One of the other problems is pool owners don't always read labels and sometimes just do whatever the pool store tells them to do. That can be a huge problem because -

(A) If you overdose a floc ("gee, a little is good so A LOT MUST BE better!") then you will get the reverse effect - the floc will actually act as a dispersant and cause a huge cloudy mess; OR

(B) If you vacuum it up into the filter, you will clog up a filter and cause yourself a nightmare filter clean up job.

There are plenty of chemicals "that work great", like sodium bromide or copper to kill algae. But just because you can use something doesn't mean you should use it. As for what it adds to the water, many flocs are based on aluminum or ferric sulfate and will leave sulfates behind in the pool water (there are poly-aluminum chloride flocs which are safer but harder to dose correctly). Sulfates are bad for plaster and SWGs.

Again, it's about teaching people methods that will work for the most number of pool owners and teaching them methods that are "trouble free". Flocs fail on both accounts.

Thanks for this explanation. Makes a lot of sense but also more motivation to suck it up and buy some DE just in case someday.

 

[kevreh]

This is a timely thread for me, even if its from last year. Just had someone pressure wash around my pool and now the water looks a little dirty and "murky". Forgot to tell him to be careful so he sprays AWAY from the pool. I've had other times, like the OP has mentioned, when the water doesn't look so great after a storm or heavy bather load. I'm curious about using a flocculant to help dirt fall out of suspension. Hoping a cleaning cycle with the robot will be enough to clean up the waste on the pool bottom. ? If the robot approach works, thats a much easier way then letting my cartridge filter do all the heavy lifting (not to mention its a lot harder to clean vs the cartridge filter).

Also considering the use of an enzyme based clarifier. GLB makes one called "Natural Clear Enzyme". If I recall, enzyme based clarifiers are more filter friendly (I have a cartridge filter).

My hope is that by using one or both (clarifier and floculant) I won't have to wait a week for things to clear up. If these "tools" are effective and don't cause harm, why not? Storm, wind/dust, and bather load all seem reasonable causes to use these products to me.

It is a little odd that people seem to frown on the use of clarifiers and floculants. Its sensible to make sure people understand the core issues, but there's a place to discuss "tools" like these to address certain situations. But there's a logic disconnect if we can't discuss these more advanced (if you can call it that) solutions in order to not confuse new people to the site.

 

[Swampwoman]

Floc is typically discouraged particularly for those with cartridge filters...as even the minute residue after vaccing to waste with cartridges out can clog up the filters.