I drained the pool out to about 6" above the deep end area. I am guessing this is about 1/2 of the water. I hope this will lower my levels and increase my clarity.
Luke Pools
Luke Pools
Why does liquid floc work sometimes and others it doesn't?
- Thread starter lukepools
- Start date
How about "Chemtura is lying to its customers to maximize its profits." ?chem geek said:
Chemtura also negates the need for phosphate removal, or the effectiveness of using such products. Of course, they don't manufacture such products either!
You know, that's actually the one thing I give them credit for. I sat through a whole workshop with them on phosphates. They had a few good points. The biggest one being (hope I remember this right) that you can only test for and remove Orthophosphate which is only one type of phosphate present in the pool that algae can process.
They also mentioned the ability to prevent algae with proper chlorine levels despite any level of phosphate, plus the fact that most removers are flocculants which can be helpful regardless of phosphate reduction.
I'm surprised that they don't offer a remover, just because they like to make money any way possible.
They also mentioned the ability to prevent algae with proper chlorine levels despite any level of phosphate, plus the fact that most removers are flocculants which can be helpful regardless of phosphate reduction.
I'm surprised that they don't offer a remover, just because they like to make money any way possible.
i always tell the customers that one bottle may work... if not, you may need to purchace another. Buts ive only had a few times when one bottle didnt work.
I added a second bottle, let the pump run a few hours longer then the bottle recommended and the next day the pool was clear with all the junk at the bottom.
making sure all the algae is dead is a big key that someone had already posted. also while the pump is running after you add the floc i usually go around and brush the walls and pool floor to make sure i get anything stuck to liner, off and floating.
When you have a sand filter with bad algae or cloudy water, i really feel there is no other way besides flock... i mean there is.. but who wants to wait weeks.. i know my customers dont. and it make you look bad, even though it has NOTHING to do with u or your company.
but when u floc it, and the pool is clear and clean within 2-3 days... u and your company are the BEST!
I added a second bottle, let the pump run a few hours longer then the bottle recommended and the next day the pool was clear with all the junk at the bottom.
making sure all the algae is dead is a big key that someone had already posted. also while the pump is running after you add the floc i usually go around and brush the walls and pool floor to make sure i get anything stuck to liner, off and floating.
When you have a sand filter with bad algae or cloudy water, i really feel there is no other way besides flock... i mean there is.. but who wants to wait weeks.. i know my customers dont. and it make you look bad, even though it has NOTHING to do with u or your company.
but when u floc it, and the pool is clear and clean within 2-3 days... u and your company are the BEST!
That's amazing that they said that, but didn't define "proper chlorine" to be an appropriate FC/CYA ratio. Of course, talking about CYA means not using as much stabilized chlorine which is a primary product that they sell. Though what they say is technically true about other phosphate "food" sources, it does appear that getting rid of the orthophosphate (which gets rid of phosphoric acid and its relatives) does seem to work to prevent algae. Perhaps in most pools, it's the primary source of phosphate for algae. It's like using PolyQuat 60 weekly -- it's not ineffective, it's just extra cost and unnecessary if one maintains the appropriate FC/CYA ratio.spishex said:
Take a look at this thread from The PoolForum (I copied it to my account since not everyone can access The PoolForum anymore). One can usually clear a pool with algae in about a week or less, but one has to use a sufficient amount of chlorine. The problem doesn't seem to be so much having a sand filter as not having a floor drain as with most above-ground pools. In those situations, the poor circulation can certainly delay the speed of clearing the water, especially in pools with weak pumps (i.e. Intex pools with original pumps).Heckpools said:
For a pool service, I can definitely see the practicality of using a flocculant with the tradeoff of speed vs. cost. Of course, it requires one to be able to vacuum to waste which isn't an option in some pools, such as mine that has a cartridge filter. Also, the easiest approach is prevention of algae in the first place, but you can't always control what your customers do! The use of 50 ppm Borates would probably be a very reasonable approach; it won't completely prevent algae, but it will significantly slow down its growth so that managing a pool on a weekly basis becomes easier even if the chlorine gets too low over part of that time.
Richard
Well draining out half the pool did lower the CYA level to about 40 or 50. The water is clearer, but you can't make out the deep end. After I get back from the Orlando Pool Show I'll see what I can do to clear it up. One word of advice to everyone. After this, I am never going to take on a cloudy pool with a hayward top mounted sand filter!
The sand filter is NOT the problem, the water chemistry is! No amount of floc and filtering will clear a pool that is cloudy because the water is out of whack!
Yes, with a CYA initially at around 100 ppm, you (lukepools) would have needed to maintain a shock level of around 40 ppm FC to clear the pool of algae in the "normal" time frame of less than a week. At 50 ppm CYA, it only takes a maintained shock level of 20 ppm FC to clear the algae at roughly the same rate of speed. "maintain" means just that -- you can't just add one dose and expect it to clear; the chlorine initially drops quickly as it kills and oxidizes algae so more must be added regularly, though the rate of consumption goes down over time. Remember that this shock level is technically equivalent to having only 0.6 ppm FC with no CYA; that's how much CYA lowers chlorine's "power".
I must repeat that the active chlorine level which determines the rate of all chlorine chemical reactions, including killing algae, oxidizing organics, and killing bacteria and viruses, is roughly proportional to the FC/CYA ratio. The FC level by itself (when CYA is present) is a meaningless number in this regard -- it only tells you the chlorine reserve or reservoir capacity, NOT chlorine's power or effectiveness.
I doubt that you raised the FC to 40 ppm FC so the slow clearing is not surprising. In fact, adding 2 pounds of Lithium Hypochlorite to a 20,000 gallon pool (which is what you said in this post) would only raise the FC by 4.2 ppm (waterbear also said this in this post). This FC/CYA ratio of 0.04 isn't even high enough to kill algae faster than it can grow, let alone a shock level to kill it more quickly. The cold 38 degree water slows down, but does not stop, the algae growth (we've seen photos of algae growing under ice), but unfortunately it also slows down all chemical reactions including that of chlorine oxidizing the algae to help clear it (but the high CYA is also hurting as well).
Normally the advice when a pool has very high CYA is to do a partial drain/refill first, even when there is algae (if already fully developed; not just starting out), since you've got to do that anyway eventually and it takes a lower chlorine level to clear the pool when the CYA is lower. When the CYA is very high, even a flocculant won't help very much if the algae is still growing because the active chlorine level is too low. With an algae bloom, especially with a high CYA, just throwing in 10 ppm FC of chlorine doesn't do much good because it gets used up quickly so unless you are constantly adding more chlorine, the FC will drop and algae will continue to grow. Your cold water situation doesn't help either -- everything slows down with colder water.
Richard
I must repeat that the active chlorine level which determines the rate of all chlorine chemical reactions, including killing algae, oxidizing organics, and killing bacteria and viruses, is roughly proportional to the FC/CYA ratio. The FC level by itself (when CYA is present) is a meaningless number in this regard -- it only tells you the chlorine reserve or reservoir capacity, NOT chlorine's power or effectiveness.
I doubt that you raised the FC to 40 ppm FC so the slow clearing is not surprising. In fact, adding 2 pounds of Lithium Hypochlorite to a 20,000 gallon pool (which is what you said in this post) would only raise the FC by 4.2 ppm (waterbear also said this in this post). This FC/CYA ratio of 0.04 isn't even high enough to kill algae faster than it can grow, let alone a shock level to kill it more quickly. The cold 38 degree water slows down, but does not stop, the algae growth (we've seen photos of algae growing under ice), but unfortunately it also slows down all chemical reactions including that of chlorine oxidizing the algae to help clear it (but the high CYA is also hurting as well).
Normally the advice when a pool has very high CYA is to do a partial drain/refill first, even when there is algae (if already fully developed; not just starting out), since you've got to do that anyway eventually and it takes a lower chlorine level to clear the pool when the CYA is lower. When the CYA is very high, even a flocculant won't help very much if the algae is still growing because the active chlorine level is too low. With an algae bloom, especially with a high CYA, just throwing in 10 ppm FC of chlorine doesn't do much good because it gets used up quickly so unless you are constantly adding more chlorine, the FC will drop and algae will continue to grow. Your cold water situation doesn't help either -- everything slows down with colder water.
Richard
WATERBEAR- well that ios just common sense ( i hope so anyway) i didnt mean that the sand filter was the problem, what i meant was if a customers doesnt take care of the pool and it turns into a swampy mess... having a sand filter is going to slow you down. Ive delt with many green pools... ones with sand filters always took the longest to clear.
also, a cloudy pool due to chemical imbalance i wouldnt use floc to clear up lol
but maybe a cloudy pool due to dead algae floating, is where id use the floc.
CHEMGEEK- any pool that we build here that has a cartridge filter we install a 3 way jandy at the top of the pump. one line goes to the filter and the other to a waste line. This helps SOO much when you need to drian the pool, or vac. to waste
also, a cloudy pool due to chemical imbalance i wouldnt use floc to clear up lol
but maybe a cloudy pool due to dead algae floating, is where id use the floc.
CHEMGEEK- any pool that we build here that has a cartridge filter we install a 3 way jandy at the top of the pump. one line goes to the filter and the other to a waste line. This helps SOO much when you need to drian the pool, or vac. to waste
My comment was not directed at you but rather at lukepools. He had a cloudy pool with some major water balance issues and WAY to little chlorine (and apparently not a lot of knowledge of how much chlorine he was actually putting in as per his putting in 2 lbs. of 35% lithium into a 20k pool and thinking that was 'shocking the pool'!) I agree with you that floc is the fastest way to clear a pool that is cloudy because of DEAD algae (and the easiest way when you have a DE filter). Pros usually have the patience to vac to waste properly!Heckpools said:
I also agree with your comments on sand filters (which is why I have a cart on MY pool!
)Though I love a lot of what my PB did with our pool, he didn't put in a 3-way valve to be able to vacuum to waste or drain the pool, etc. I haven't needed to do it, but it would have been nice to have that option. I'm glad you're thinking ahead.Heckpools said:CHEMGEEK- any pool that we build here that has a cartridge filter we install a 3 way jandy at the top of the pump. one line goes to the filter and the other to a waste line. This helps SOO much when you need to drian the pool, or vac. to waste
ya know.. i this answers lukes question... floc works when the pool isn't cloudy due to improper chemical balance... and works when the water has particals floating...
lithium shock... hmm reminds me when i had a friend of mine ( whos been in the business longer then me) clean one of my pools for me because i got held up on another job. It had an aquagenie.. and he didnt have tri chlor tabs with him, so he poured 1 bag of lithium shock into the chlorine dispenser.... Edited for language. Butterfly !? and i didnt find this out till i went back next week and called him and asked why my pool was cloudy!!! Edited for language. JasonLion i swear i dont understand some people!!!
sorry, back to topic
lithium shock... hmm reminds me when i had a friend of mine ( whos been in the business longer then me) clean one of my pools for me because i got held up on another job. It had an aquagenie.. and he didnt have tri chlor tabs with him, so he poured 1 bag of lithium shock into the chlorine dispenser.... Edited for language. Butterfly !? and i didnt find this out till i went back next week and called him and asked why my pool was cloudy!!! Edited for language. JasonLion i swear i dont understand some people!!!
sorry, back to topic
I'll take all your pokes at my pool knowledge. Though I get paid to service pools, the education always continues. Thank you. Well after draining the pool half way out and reducing the CYA level. I shocked the pool with 12 lbs of cal hypo. I came back today about a week later and the pool was 10 times better. You could see the bottom. Though all my chemical levels were off, I am super hyped it cleared up.
Luke Pools
Luke Pools
It helps a great deal to focus on the water test numbers. They tell you much more than simply noticing if the water cleared up or not. Of course it is also good to know that the water cleared up, but without knowing the test results it is difficult to guess at what might be happening.
My current test kit test for 25 different chemicals. I used my water gram and its balanced now. So if the water is crystal clear and the pool is clean. The 1/2 drain out and refill, rebalance did the trick.
Luke Pools
Luke Pools
What 25 different chemicals? Which test kit do you have? I am intrigued. Since you mentioned watergram I am assuming you have a Taylor kit. They do not make a pool kit that tests 25 parameters. Their pro slide combo really only tests 10 (and that is including acid/base demand and total and Magnesioum hardness, which are not really applicable to pools). Even if you add tests for borates and phosphates, biguanide, peroxide, and salt you are not anywhere near 25 different water parameters. LaMotte, Hach, and Palintest do have some colorimeters that can test that many water parameters but most of them are really not meaningful to pool/spa water testinglukepools said: