Hi, I just converted my therapy pool to Br from Cl this past weekend. My water tested at 6ppm Br, 7.4 pH this morning when we opened it. No other water tests done. When I closed the pool for the day, water tested at .5 Br and 7.6 pH. I shocked with Bioguard Oxysheen and the water turned brown immediately, where the shock was spread. It went away just as quickly. I am assuming this is just the shock releasing the combined Br. Is this correct? I tested the water after 5 min, and the Br was at 10. Did not test pH.
Water turning brown with bromine
- Thread starter Lazerguppie
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Probably elemental bromine.
High concentrations of bromine will be yellow or brown depending on how much bromine there is.
needs help. LOL
I think that the above post shows a pool with high concentrations of bromine.
Did you add sodium bromide? If yes, how much?
High concentrations of bromine will be yellow or brown depending on how much bromine there is.
needs help. LOL
I think that the above post shows a pool with high concentrations of bromine.
Did you add sodium bromide? If yes, how much?
Yes, I added sodium bromide, per the instructions on the bottle, which amounted to 4 cups to a freshly filled pool. I also put 4 1" tabs in the feeder, two of which dissolved over the weekend. As stated in the question, the bromine tested low before the shock. Isn't that the point of shock- to release the bound halide so it can do it's job? I'm not trying to be snarky. That's a real question.
This morning my water tests as Br- 10ppm and pH 6.5. Added pH+ and turned my jets on.
MPurcell
0
Sodium bromide is not a sanitizer. It has essentially the same relationship to bromine that sodium chloride has to chlorine. When you add liquid chlorine/bleach or another oxidizer, the sodium bromide is converted into hyprobromous acid which is the sanitizer. This is a bit oversimplified from a chemistry point of view, but it gets the general idea across. A test kit does not detect sodium bromide, but only active bromine. It is not a problem to use chlorine in a bromine pool because the chlorine acts as an oxidizer to activate the bromine, essentially eliminating the chlorine. However, it does create a problem to use bromine in a chlorine pool, because you have then converted the pool to bromine, and you can't get rid of it.
For a bromine pool, the best and most economical oxidizer is liquid chlorine/bleach. You could also use potassium peroxymonosulfate (MPS). The Oxysheen product you mentioned seems to be MPS non-chlorine shock. You say you have an automatic feeder for Cl/Br, but you also mentioned that the pool store person advised you to use bromine tabs. So are you using bromine tabs in the automatic feeder? I assume you wouldn't have floaters in the pool, since you have people in it all day. Bromine tabs are usually bromochloro 5, 5 dimethylhydantoin (BCDMH).
Assuming you are using MPS and bromine tabs to maintain the bromine level, you will most likely experience a lowering of pH on a daily basis, especially since it will take a significant amount of both the tabs and the MPS to offset the bather waste. Both products are acidic, and so in a bromine pool with those products, pH behaves differently than in a swimming pool. To help stabilize the pH a little, you can take the total alkalinity up quite a bit higher than the recommended level for a spa. There are three products that you can use to raise the pH, and you don't need to be spending pool store prices, as you can get them at the grocery store. They are baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), washing soda or soda ash (sodium carbonate) and sodium tetraborate (borax as in 20 Mule Team Borax). Baking soda raises TA and pH with an emphasis on TA. Washing soda raises pH and TA with an emphasis on pH. Borax raises pH without raising TA. I use baking soda to raise pH when it gets too low, as it brings the TA up significantly as well. I also have about 50 ppm of borates in the water to help stabilize the pH.
Converting from chlorine to bromine you need to adjust to the fact that bromine ppm is 2.25 times greater for the same sanitizing action, so 10 ppm bromine is approximately equivalent to 4.4 ppm chlorine.
For a bromine pool, the best and most economical oxidizer is liquid chlorine/bleach. You could also use potassium peroxymonosulfate (MPS). The Oxysheen product you mentioned seems to be MPS non-chlorine shock. You say you have an automatic feeder for Cl/Br, but you also mentioned that the pool store person advised you to use bromine tabs. So are you using bromine tabs in the automatic feeder? I assume you wouldn't have floaters in the pool, since you have people in it all day. Bromine tabs are usually bromochloro 5, 5 dimethylhydantoin (BCDMH).
Assuming you are using MPS and bromine tabs to maintain the bromine level, you will most likely experience a lowering of pH on a daily basis, especially since it will take a significant amount of both the tabs and the MPS to offset the bather waste. Both products are acidic, and so in a bromine pool with those products, pH behaves differently than in a swimming pool. To help stabilize the pH a little, you can take the total alkalinity up quite a bit higher than the recommended level for a spa. There are three products that you can use to raise the pH, and you don't need to be spending pool store prices, as you can get them at the grocery store. They are baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), washing soda or soda ash (sodium carbonate) and sodium tetraborate (borax as in 20 Mule Team Borax). Baking soda raises TA and pH with an emphasis on TA. Washing soda raises pH and TA with an emphasis on pH. Borax raises pH without raising TA. I use baking soda to raise pH when it gets too low, as it brings the TA up significantly as well. I also have about 50 ppm of borates in the water to help stabilize the pH.
Converting from chlorine to bromine you need to adjust to the fact that bromine ppm is 2.25 times greater for the same sanitizing action, so 10 ppm bromine is approximately equivalent to 4.4 ppm chlorine.
Thank you, MPurcell, that was very helpful. I was aware of most of what you put in the post as far as NaBr not being a sanitizer and needed to build a bank, etc. Yes, Oxysheen is an MPS oxidizer. Yes, we have A LOT of waste in the pool on the daily. Any help with that? I usually do a good job of managing pH, but do not normally test for TA. I "inherited" the pool maintenance job with absolutely no training (I'm working on that) and the person before me only tested for pH and sanitizer, per health dept regs. I have a full test kit on order, it just hasn't gotten here yet.
Yes, I use the Br tabs in the auto feeder, as I did when the system was Cl. There is no feeder in the pool (I have one if needed in emergency basis).
Yes, I use the Br tabs in the auto feeder, as I did when the system was Cl. There is no feeder in the pool (I have one if needed in emergency basis).
A bromine system will have some elemental bromine. Usually, it's not enough to make a noticeable color.
However, if the concentration is high enough, you can get yellow or brown.
Concentration depends on ph and bromine level.
When adding oxidizer, the local bromine level can get high enough to be noticeable.
However, if the concentration is high enough, you can get yellow or brown.
Concentration depends on ph and bromine level.
When adding oxidizer, the local bromine level can get high enough to be noticeable.
MPurcell
0
Your pool will use some amount of sanitizer just from the natural decay of the bromine and from other environmental factors of the system itself. In other words, if you had just cleaned and filled the pool, and had a period of time before any bathers entered the water, you could test to see what the bromine demand of the pool itself would be. Say over a 24 hour period, the bromine ppm would drop from 10 ppm to 5 ppm the bromine demand would be 50%. Beyond the bromine demand of the pool itself, you will lose bromine as the bromine neutralizes bather waste, including oils, cosmetics, deodorant, soap and all the other things people put on their bodies, as well as a significant amount of perspiration, and possibly urine and feces. The idea of the three step bromine method for a private hot tub is to have the bromine tabs be dispensed at a rate that exactly compensates for the bromine demand of the hot tub, and to use oxidizer to neutralize the bather waste. Usually, oxidizer is measured and added to the water after each period of soaking. This way if the owner goes a week between uses of the tub, and then uses it several times a day for a couple of days, the bromine will stay at about the same level all the time.
This model does not fit your usage, but by following the principles involved, you should be able to work out a way to keep the bromine ppm somewhat near a desirable level. You still need to handle both the bromine demand of the pool and the bather waste. You will obviously need to be adding more bromine during weekdays while the pool is in use, and much less overnight and on weekends when the pool is empty. I have no idea what your health department requires as far as monitoring, but I would think it would be necessary to check sanitizer and pH every hour or two during the work day when the pool is in use. You really don't want to let the bromine level ever get down to zero, or even probably not below about 3 ppm or whatever level the health department requires as a minimum.
In your situation with BCDMH tabs and MPS oxidizer, a total alkalinity of 100 ppm or more, even maybe 150 ppm would help to stabilize the pH. I don't know if your chlorine/bromine feeder can dispense liquid, but if it can, using liquid chlorine as the oxidizer would make a lot of sense in your situation. Liquid chlorine, or bleach, are relatively pH neutral, so if you could eliminate the BCDMH tabs and the MPS, then you would not be fighting a dropping pH.
Hope you find some food for thought here.
Michael
This model does not fit your usage, but by following the principles involved, you should be able to work out a way to keep the bromine ppm somewhat near a desirable level. You still need to handle both the bromine demand of the pool and the bather waste. You will obviously need to be adding more bromine during weekdays while the pool is in use, and much less overnight and on weekends when the pool is empty. I have no idea what your health department requires as far as monitoring, but I would think it would be necessary to check sanitizer and pH every hour or two during the work day when the pool is in use. You really don't want to let the bromine level ever get down to zero, or even probably not below about 3 ppm or whatever level the health department requires as a minimum.
In your situation with BCDMH tabs and MPS oxidizer, a total alkalinity of 100 ppm or more, even maybe 150 ppm would help to stabilize the pH. I don't know if your chlorine/bromine feeder can dispense liquid, but if it can, using liquid chlorine as the oxidizer would make a lot of sense in your situation. Liquid chlorine, or bleach, are relatively pH neutral, so if you could eliminate the BCDMH tabs and the MPS, then you would not be fighting a dropping pH.
Hope you find some food for thought here.
Michael
Yes! Incredibly helpful and answers a lot of questions on how I was unsuccessful with the chlorine as well. Our regs state I only have to test once per day. However, therapy industry best practices state testing should be done every 2 hours, which I do. I was able to do the Bromine load experiment you mentioned in your post. The pool was filled Sun, left to run over night, tested Mon with no bather load at 10ppm. The following day tested at 8 ppm. I can add liquid bleach daily to oxidize without a problem. I will use the pool calculator to tell me how much. The boss will appreciate any way to save money.
I think one of my main issues is that our filter is just not up to snuff, and I have gotten the boss to agree to getting a larger filter. I also keep a turtle tank (which is the opposite of a pool!) and I know because of how messy he is I have extra filtration. Hoping that will help control the bioload.
I think one of my main issues is that our filter is just not up to snuff, and I have gotten the boss to agree to getting a larger filter. I also keep a turtle tank (which is the opposite of a pool!) and I know because of how messy he is I have extra filtration. Hoping that will help control the bioload.
MPurcell
0
Pool math only computes chlorine ppm, so to use if for bromine, you need to divide the current bromine ppm by 2.25 and then multiply the target result by 2.25 to get the target bromine ppm.
The problem I see with manually adding liquid chlorine is that you need to keep the bromine fairly constant during the day, and probably shouldn't be adding it while bathers are present.
We didn't talk about test kits, but you should definitely have the FAS-DPD test for bromine. Any other type of test is not accurate enough for your purpose. The most likely kit would be the Taylor K-2106 (or K-2106C the commercial size, if they make it). It has bromine, pH, total alkalinity and calcium hardness tests.
The problem I see with manually adding liquid chlorine is that you need to keep the bromine fairly constant during the day, and probably shouldn't be adding it while bathers are present.
We didn't talk about test kits, but you should definitely have the FAS-DPD test for bromine. Any other type of test is not accurate enough for your purpose. The most likely kit would be the Taylor K-2106 (or K-2106C the commercial size, if they make it). It has bromine, pH, total alkalinity and calcium hardness tests.
You are correct- I cannot add chemicals with patients in the pool. I control Br throughout the day through the feeder- I can adjust to add more if needed. I do not think my feeder can handle liquid. I can see now, that a commercial system was not put in when the spa/pool was installed 10 years ago, or if it was, they grossly underestimated its use.
So far (and this is only 2 days in operations as a Br system) shocking every evening at end of day has been working. I will change my shock from the Oxysheen to bleach as the seems more economical and easier on maint.
I have a regular test kit on order, but will ask the boss to order the DPD-FAS test.
There is also an ozonator as well, in the system.
I greatly appreciate your help and understand my challenges much better. Thank you!
So far (and this is only 2 days in operations as a Br system) shocking every evening at end of day has been working. I will change my shock from the Oxysheen to bleach as the seems more economical and easier on maint.
I have a regular test kit on order, but will ask the boss to order the DPD-FAS test.
There is also an ozonator as well, in the system.
I greatly appreciate your help and understand my challenges much better. Thank you!
My FAS-DPD test kit came in this morning. It's just the halide and pH though. Tested and everything looks good (after a morning of pool patients). Br at 6, pH at 7.6.
MPurcell
0
FAS-DPD is a titration test. You use a measured sample of water in the sample tube, usually 10ml or 25ml, add a powder reagent to turn the sample red and then titrate with ferrous ammonium sulfate (FAS) until the water turns clear. Is that the test you have?
You can get individual Taylor replacement reagents from a supplier on the east coast Amato Industries. They are the most economical source I am aware of. You can also get individual reagents through TFTestKits. You could also get the reagents for the total alkalinity test from either of them.
You can get individual Taylor replacement reagents from a supplier on the east coast Amato Industries. They are the most economical source I am aware of. You can also get individual reagents through TFTestKits. You could also get the reagents for the total alkalinity test from either of them.
No. My boss ordered the Taylor basic FAS- DPD with the 2 reagents for the halide. The K1000.
MPurcell
0
The Taylor K-1000 test kit uses orthotolodine in a comparator block. It is the least reliable of the test kits for halides. The yellow color comparison is difficult for many people. If the test kit you just received is a K-1000, then you have a comparator block with Cl/Br on the left with shades of yellow, and pH on the right with shades of yellow-amber to purple. Is that what you have?
The Taylor K-1004 is a similar test kit with halide and pH, but it is DPD (not FAS-DPD). It has a comparator block with shades of purple on the left from pale to dark, and the pH on the right is the same yellow-amber to purple. That's the kit I started with when I first started out, but it is also not nearly accurate enough.
The Taylor K-1004 is a similar test kit with halide and pH, but it is DPD (not FAS-DPD). It has a comparator block with shades of purple on the left from pale to dark, and the pH on the right is the same yellow-amber to purple. That's the kit I started with when I first started out, but it is also not nearly accurate enough.
The test kit I got is the magenta one where I add 2 reagents to get the halide reading. It says FAS-DPD on the bottles and the label.
Next q:- how do I keep the Br from tanking in the middle of the day? I will start off with 10ppm and by noon, it will be down to 6, then continues to fall. I know this is from bather load. I have a continuous feed of Br from the auto feeder, and even turned all the way up, it cannot keep up. I am unable to shock in the middle of the day- just the way the schedule works out. Would it be feasible to put a cl tab in with the br tabs?
Next q:- how do I keep the Br from tanking in the middle of the day? I will start off with 10ppm and by noon, it will be down to 6, then continues to fall. I know this is from bather load. I have a continuous feed of Br from the auto feeder, and even turned all the way up, it cannot keep up. I am unable to shock in the middle of the day- just the way the schedule works out. Would it be feasible to put a cl tab in with the br tabs?
MPurcell
0
What are the numbers on the Taylor reagent bottles themselves? DPD uses R-0001, R-0002 and R-0003 (all dropper bottles). FAS-DPD uses R-0870 (DPD powder) and R-0871 DPD titrating reagent chlorine or R-0872 titrating reagent bromine (dropper bottles).
I don't know how that would work. You might use calcium hypochlorite, but do not use bichlor or trichlor tabs as they both have cyanuric acid which you do not want in your bromine water. Honestly, if the feeder at full plus the ozonator don't keep up with the demand, then it sounds like you need different equipment.
I don't know how that would work. You might use calcium hypochlorite, but do not use bichlor or trichlor tabs as they both have cyanuric acid which you do not want in your bromine water. Honestly, if the feeder at full plus the ozonator don't keep up with the demand, then it sounds like you need different equipment.
I don't have the bottles in front of me, but I think I remember them saying R-0001 and R-0002 for the halide test (5 drops of each into the first tube for magenta/pink comparison).
And yes, I don't think we have the right equipment, and I am working on that.
Could it be because I don't have a large enough Br bank built up, even though I added the NaBr?
- - - Updated - - -
Looking on Amazon, it's the Taylor K-1001 basic test kit.
And yes, I don't think we have the right equipment, and I am working on that.
Could it be because I don't have a large enough Br bank built up, even though I added the NaBr?
- - - Updated - - -
Looking on Amazon, it's the Taylor K-1001 basic test kit.
MPurcell
0
The normal recommendation for the bromide bank is approximately 50 ppm of sodium bromide. I am not sure of the chemistry, but my assumption is that if you oxidize all of it, you would get 50 ppm of active bromine. My tub has around 50 ppm bromide bank, and I know I've taken my tub up to about 25 ppm active bromine.
You should convince the owner to get the FAS-DPD test for bromine. For one thing, the DPD test in the K-1001 test kit only goes up to the equivalent of 5 ppm of chlorine, which is marked on the comparator block as 10 ppm of bromine (it's actually 5 x 2.25 = 11.25 to be accurate). You may need to go higher than that at times and the DPD test kit will not do that. Also, the DPD test is not as reliable or as accurate as the FAS-DPD test. I have long since stopped using the DPD color comparator as the two tests don't agree very closely even with the same sample water. If you ever do need to shock, the level for shocking is 10 ppm chlorine which would be 22.5 ppm for bromine.
You can get the Taylor K-2106 bromine test kit through Amato Industries for $48.00 plus shipping. That's the best price I'm aware of on the internet.
I should mention that I do not represent Trouble Free Pools and have only posted my own opinions here in this thread. I'm not a professional or in the industry, and am not qualified to give advice to a commercial establishment.
You should convince the owner to get the FAS-DPD test for bromine. For one thing, the DPD test in the K-1001 test kit only goes up to the equivalent of 5 ppm of chlorine, which is marked on the comparator block as 10 ppm of bromine (it's actually 5 x 2.25 = 11.25 to be accurate). You may need to go higher than that at times and the DPD test kit will not do that. Also, the DPD test is not as reliable or as accurate as the FAS-DPD test. I have long since stopped using the DPD color comparator as the two tests don't agree very closely even with the same sample water. If you ever do need to shock, the level for shocking is 10 ppm chlorine which would be 22.5 ppm for bromine.
You can get the Taylor K-2106 bromine test kit through Amato Industries for $48.00 plus shipping. That's the best price I'm aware of on the internet.
I should mention that I do not represent Trouble Free Pools and have only posted my own opinions here in this thread. I'm not a professional or in the industry, and am not qualified to give advice to a commercial establishment.
I appreciate the disclaimer. You may not be qualified, but you have certainly given my more information than those who supposedly are.
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