Used sand filter - avail. options & your recommendations

[y_not]

I'm on my 3rd(I think?) season with the Master pack entry level system shown at the link below.

Thanks for the recommendation.

I looked all over for that thing, couldn't find it, not even on Amazon or eBay. Searched by the Columbia name & the Master Pack name. I see their bigger ones, but none of the small ones. I also found the pumps & filters by themselves, but not together as a kit, which will be less.

Sadly, I don't think this would work for me, only if I stayed with what I have.
As stated earlier, I really need something that can scale with me. Very soon too, as I'm only slowed by waiting for a larger pool to hit the used market here that I can buy. Something in the neighborhood of a big 20-25ft metal sided, permanent type install, sturdy AGP pool.
Then I'll have to do all the backbreaking work of setting it up and prepping the ground. I might even torture myself further and do a partial burry. YIKES!! We have rocks the size of Volkswagens and it wouldn't surprise me to find ones larger than that if a major excavation were to happen. So I just hope I don't hit any of those. Although I do know a guy that legally has access to blasting media. HEHE

It's sure a cute widdoowww thing though. LOL
I'll admit, I'm utterly shocked you have gotten that long out of it. It must be built a whole heck of a lot better than it looks. Just looking at it, mainly the pump as I know the filter is tiny, it just looks like a Mickey Mouse design. The multiport vertical valve, mounted horizontally it looks like, seems easily broken and not too durable. But sometimes looks are deceiving with equipment. Which you can usually tell a lot as to how well they're built by how they look and feel. Weight, solidness to them, etc...

How loud is it? How about in relation to the original, and very dinky, Intex cartridge pump+filter unit that your pool came with?

I don't remember where I came up with the 7600 gallon figure, but my chemistry results seem to support it.

www.poolcalculator.com .... that's where.

 

[Bama Rambler]

80 gpm should backwash that filter fine. I suspect you'll have more than 10' of head though unless you run big piping from the skimmer to the pump.

 

[linen]

I am curious if that pump will give you 80 gpm during backwash. At one point I did ask mas985 about backwash flowrates with the matrix 1hp 2-speed on high here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/filter-sizes-t42087-20.html#p345305 He seem to think that it might not.

I am not sure what I get on during backwash however (i will have to figure this out this summer).

 

[y_not]

I am curious if that pump will give you 80 gpm during backwash. At one point I did ask mas985 about backwash flowrates with the matrix 1hp 2-speed on high <snip> He seem to think that it might not.

I just read that section, thanks.
But I'm a bit confused by the following.

But using the more conservative lower range for 15 GPM/sq-ft, that would be about 75 GPM and on typical plumbing might have a backwash head of up to 56' at that flow rate.

What does he mean by backwash head @ X flow rate?? IE. which flow rate is he referring to?
The max flow rate of the pump, or the filter, or what? Is he saying there's that much ft. of head loss in suction from the skimmer to the pump on the typical setup? Thus that much loss in output from the pump into the filter?

If I run, say, no more than 20' of 2" pipe, then step it down to 1.5" at the pump, because the pump doesn't have a 2" inlet/outlet. Would that cancel out enough headloss for it to not be an issue?
Of course, the multiport valve on this unit is 2", not 1.5". Seems silly to have a 1.5" pump, but I fear getting a 2" is going to be some serious bones!!

I see the flow-rate gain on stepping up to the 1.5HP is negligible. I'm assuming this is because it's an up-rated pump and uses the exact same motor. Yeah?
It looks like it uses an AO Smith Century Flex 48Y, or 48W, not sure the diff. It'd be either P/N: BN37V1 or BN50V1.
But I see the service factors are the same, all 1.0. So wouldn't that mean they are in fact different motors? Hrrmmmm....
I'm not sure what the "1081" & "5063" numbers mean on their spec sheet though.
I also see that it's a HUGE jump up in Amps between the 2, not as bad on the low speed, but still pretty bad. Certainly not linear. The 230v is looking mighty attractive.
Just thinkin' out loud here.

 

[linen]

What does he mean by backwash head @ X flow rate?? IE. which flow rate is he referring to?
The max flow rate of the pump, or the filter, or what? Is he saying there's that much ft. of head loss in suction from the skimmer to the pump on the typical setup? Thus that much loss in output from the pump into the filter?

As for the flow rate, he is referring to a theoretical minimum flow rate needed to backwash effectively...15gpmX4.9 sq. ft =73.5 gpm or ~75 gpm. As to his comment on head pressure at that flow rate, I think that he is saying at that flow rate (75 gpm) the plumbing may have as much as 56 ft head of pressure (though this seems high to me...see below). In the case of the matrix, according to the Hayward's table on the 1hp, it could only supply that flow rate if the head pressure was 30 ft (or less). One thing that might help drive this concept home is that plumbing pressure (and therefore "head") goes up as flow goes up.

If I run, say, no more than 20' of 2" pipe, then step it down to 1.5" at the pump, because the pump doesn't have a 2" inlet/outlet. Would that cancel out enough headloss for it to not be an issue?

It won't hurt, but I would guess it would be a minor help for backwashing. Your head loss would only go down by the ratios of ~12/16 for the straight runs (from mas's Hydraulics 101 table on pipe characteristics). Without actually going through and calculating this in detail, I would think that the 1.5 hp matrix might be able to do the backwashing job since the backwash valve is 2 in and the filter is big (both give lower head pressure than smaller sized valves/filters). I would feel less confident in the 1 hp matrix, though. Bottom line this is a big filter and takes a high flow rate to backwash!

By the way, I did attempt to calculate for my setup if my 1 hp Matrix could handle this large filter, and I estimated a head of 27.5 ft in backwash mode which suggests that it would work for me...but I made a lot of assumptions/estimations that may not be accurate.

I also see that it's a HUGE jump up in Amps between the 2, not as bad on the low speed, but still pretty bad.

Good news is that you most likely will run on low the majority of the time.

Just thinkin' out loud here.

Me too

 

[Big_kid]

I looked all over for that thing, couldn't find it, not even on Amazon or eBay.

I got mine from the *gulp* pool store.

 

[y_not]

Just thinkin' out loud here.

Me too [/quote]

Linen,
Thank you for all of your "spit ballin'" there sir.

So bottom line, do you think I'd get a decently accurate answer if I called Pentair and asked them?
I'm wondering since it's a Hayward pump & Pentair filter, what with mismatched companies and all, if I should tell one or the other that I'm using their pump or filter to match similar specs.
Wha'dya thunk?

I ended up not getting the filter, seller decided he wanted more money than I really wanted to spend. Seeing as I'd have to drive over 5hrs round trip, to go and get it.
But, the seller is facing the fact that "NO ONE ELSE HAS BITTEN", so I figure I'll give him a ring in a week or 2 and see if he'll fold.

But it'd still be nice to know.

 

[y_not]

[quote="y_not":sj2d8kp3]I looked all over for that thing, couldn't find it, not even on Amazon or eBay.

I got mine from the *gulp* pool store.[/quote:sj2d8kp3]

YIKES!!!
LOL

Can I ask what you paid for it?
Any thoughts on my other comments/questions?

 

[y_not]

Linen and others...

So I threw a wanted ad on "CraigsLust", for a used sand filter.
We call it that here because you "Lust" after things on there that you know you can't afford or don't need.

See what I can drum up that might be sitting in someone's garage.
I had a guy call me up with a:
Doughboy Silica 2 Model 0-1750-000 1.4 SQft 130lb filter.
I figure that thing can't be worth much more than like $10/15 tops. Looks like it might be from the late 90's early 2000's.

EDIT: Actually it looks like they have been making these for a small eternity!! So who knows when it's from, without disassy. of the multiport to see if it's pre/post y2k.

Is it useable?
Doughboy's are super proprietary, are they not?
Does this apply to their filters, or can I use this on my existing pool, hoses and pump I plan to buy?
I suppose this would get me by fine, if it's not too costly. Giving me more time to track down a bigger, more BAAADDD filter for my bigger more BAAADDD pool!

EDIT: Flow rate appears to be 45gpm according to here: Link

 

[Big_kid]

It was right there when i wanted & needed it, no shipping, no waiting, no more paper filters to buy, and it has far outshined the junk that came with the pool, so I have no regrets having spent $200 for the combo.

 

[y_not]

Glad to hear it!!
Hey if it works, it works. Like I said, sometimes things surprise you how well they work & last.
I wish more things did though. Kinda bites these days having to buy the top of the line just about, in order to get a quality product. Gone are the days of buying an average run of the mill item that will last & last and then some.

I bet it's because it's all, or most of it anyway, made in the USA. Your filter+ pump that is.

Yeah, don't get me started on that Intex pump+paper filter.
Although I did manage to get mine to filter quite well and keep the pool clean, but only if everyone was clean before they got in. HAHA RIGHT!! I tried anyway.
I never did have to replace the factory filter. It's one tough puppy, I just washed it out all summer long. Even soaked it in detergent overnight once, made a big difference in how it looked. Not sure about the filtration though. It was notorious though for letting the heavier stuff settle on the bottom. Like dirt from the air or people's feet.

 

[y_not]

I had a guy call me up with a:
Doughboy Silica 2 Model 0-1750-000 1.4 SQft 130lb filter.
I figure that thing can't be worth much more than like $10/15 tops.

Is it useable?
Doughboy's are super proprietary, are they not?

Doughboys are that bad, huh? LOL

 

[y_not]

Is this Doughboy adaptable to standard hose fittings on an AGP, such that I can use it?
Is it a good quality filter, other than being small?

Maybe I can still pounce on it if the guy has it. Any advice on a price? *Make offer kinda thing*

Thanks!!

 

[linen]

Although I haven't worked with one directly, from what I can see of them, I might pass...but for your current pool if you could get it for maybe 40 bucks or less and you didn't have to drive far, then I might go for it. I would guess you could adapt it to standard plumbing...but I am not sure.

 

[y_not]

Thanks for taking a stab at it Linen.
Just kinda wanted some sort of weigh in on it. A sanity check if ya will. So thanks bro!

I was thinking of offering the guy like $15 for it, I found one on an auction site back east and it sold for that.
I didn't get his location, but more than likely, being what this area is, I'll have to drive 45m-1hr round trip to get to anyone nearby. NO ONE of significance lives in my town, just the next town over. They call it "Bend", the settlers off the Oregon trail thought it was a good name. Seeing as it was a "Bend in the road". LOL EPIC!!

And many, at that, live in the sticks. It's NUTZO!
You should look me up on a map. Pretty sure city+state is in my profile info.

There's someone here selling a Hayward 22" filter for $200. It has a Rainbow 320 puck chlorlnator & extra multiport for whatever reason.
I have been letting him sweat for about a week now, cause I know he won't sell it here @ that price, if at all. LOL
It's about time to call him up and offer him $50-75 for the filter alone. He can keep the extra multiport unless he just wants to throw it in. I'm not gonna pay for it, don't need it. I almost think that because he has another multiport that there's something wrong with the system. Who knows.

 

[y_not]

I called Pentair about backwash flow rate requirements for the Tagelus 100D filter I had talked about earlier in the thread.
I talked to Scott in Wisconsin.

He said it's 60gpm for the 1-1/2" multiport & 80gpm for the 2" multiport.
He said it requires a higher flow rate for the 2" because you have to fill the pipe completely with water. Comes out to 12GPM & 16GPM per square foot.

Is this supposed to be in reverse like that?
Being that larger diameter pipes create less head loss & require less flow rate to move the same amount of water. Wouldn't it be the other way around with the backwash requirements, or is he correct?
I asked him where that information was published, he said in their catalog on the product page. I looked, couldn't find any of that on the Tagelus pg. So he's sending it to me.

BTW, this one has the larger multiport valve.

He also went and asked how much head loss the filter induces, he came back and said it's 37ft.
Don't know which multiport that is.

 

[mas985]

He said it requires a higher flow rate for the 2" because you have to fill the pipe completely with water. Comes out to 12GPM & 16GPM per square foot.

Which pipe is he referring to?

Any pipe would be filled at much lower flow rates so that statement doesn't really make sense. He is right that the purging or priming flow rate for pipe is higher for larger pipe but it is also only about 20 GPM for a 2" pipe so it doesn't take much. Really, the critical flow rate is to remove the dirt from the sand so the flow rate should be relative to the size of the filter.

 

[y_not]

He said it requires a higher flow rate for the 2" because you have to fill the pipe completely with water. Comes out to 12GPM & 16GPM per square foot.

Which pipe is he referring to?

Any pipe would be filled at much lower flow rates so that statement doesn't really make sense. He is right that the purging or priming flow rate for pipe is higher for larger pipe but it is also only about 20 GPM for a 2" pipe so it doesn't take much. Really, the critical flow rate is to remove the dirt from the sand so the flow rate should be relative to the size of the filter.

That's exactly what I'm trying to determine, minimum flow rate for a proper backwash of the filter.

He, the gentleman at Pentair, is referring to the size of the multiport valve. They offer the filter /w both a 1-1/2" MP & a 2" MP. This one comes with the latter. He believes it to be that the higher number of the rated backwash rate of 60-80GPM in their specs, refers to the 2" MP. I questioned him on this, telling him that larger pipe diameters reduce headloss and thus require less pumping pressure to move the same amount of water. But he insisted that because the pipe was bigger, it'd take a higher GPM from the pump to fill it up.

I don't really think he got it and I don't fully understand the concepts well enough to be certain otherwise.
You say the higher purge/priming flow rate required for larger pipe is a difference of about 20GPM on 1-1/2"<2" pipe. Being that's the exact difference here, is what he said correct since it's the backwash flow rate we're trying to determine, not the filter flow rate required rate for daily filtration? Which is my understanding that it can be basically anything, so long as the water moves.

Unsure, so I'm giving up to the experts here.
I only called Pentair hoping they'd have a spec on this aspect of the filter.

 

[mas985]

That's nonsense. The valve will fill up with very little flow rate. Besides, the multi-port valve does not fill up with air when the pump is shut off anyway. At least it shouldn't so it is always filled with water. But you have to ask, so what if the valve doesn't fill with water? What difference would that possibly make? The important thing is to flush the dirt from the sand. His comments just don't make any sense. I think he is making it up.

 

[msgtdan]

Back to the question of a Ford Explorer hauling it all. Depends on a lot of variables, what all are you getting, what tools and equipment you have to take if you have to disassemble the pool. I'd figure at least 2 trips. I used a Dodge Durango and a 3 horse, horse trailer, but I was going 150 miles taking all sorts of tools, a wheel barrow, large shop vac and a dolly. I picked up a 27' pool with all accessories, Ladder, rubber made pool box, pump, 250# sand filter and the sand, everything in the pool box, expandable pole and the cut up liner. Also a ramp so I could roll the wheel barrow and dolly right into the trailer. We didn't stack much but we fill every inch of floor space and the back of the Durango. I pack the sandfilter in a front corner with sandbags all around it so it couldn't shift. The rails, caps and uprights just didn't seem to pack into a tight space so they sort of spread out. The pool ladder was another bulky item, even partially disassembled. The pool box disassembled pretty neatly but still took up room. The rolled up wall was heavy, glad I didn't have to lift it into the Durango. The same for the liner, it was old and stiff and didn't fold neatly, took it as part of the deal to remove everything for nothing. I was wore out by the end of the day. Just me, the DW and 2 preschoolers to disassemble and load it all.