Trouble balancing pool water

[Maxy79]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the forum and advice so far. I have been reading through a lot (information overload) and have bought the Clear Choice Labs salt water testing kit. Have done a couple of tests and compared with the results from a store test, some differences but not too badly out. However....

Today I did a test with the following results:
FC - 29
CC - 0
pH - 7.8 (test max - last store result and controller shows >8.5)
TA - 120 estimating (last store result was 105, result from todays test showed over 300)
CH - 275
CYA - <30 (5 based off last store result)
SALT - 6800 (3125 last store result) - I haven't added any salt so this seems super weird
Temp - 31C
CSI - 0.16

Over the past 4 days I have added 5 litres of MA (29%) with no reduction in the pH levels. I am concerned about adding in too much due to the smell/taste of the water. We don't use the pool for 1-2 hours after adding but as the pool is indoors, there is a distinct metallic smell in the air and taste to the water afterwards.

Previously when the pool installer added MA (by hand and through the controller feeding system), the smell was very strong and our skin ended up in a rash and itching like no tomorrow, so I want to avoid that happening again.

The FC is really high, I have turned down the SWCG to 20%, wondering if I should bypass it and have the pool on recirculation instead for a while. Need to keep it heated as the reason for getting it is to help my wife with chronic pain.

Last backwash was 5 days ago, along with vacuuming to waste due to a white powdery coating on the pool floor that I thought might be bi-carb but wasn't soluble.

Any advice/suggestions appreciated.

 

[Bperry]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the forum and advice so far. I have been reading through a lot (information overload) and have bought the Clear Choice Labs salt water testing kit. Have done a couple of tests and compared with the results from a store test, some differences but not too badly out. However....

Today I did a test with the following results:
FC - 29
CC - 0
pH - 7.8 (test max - last store result and controller shows >8.5)
TA - 120 estimating (last store result was 105, result from todays test showed over 300)
CH - 275
CYA - <30 (5 based off last store result)
SALT - 6800 (3125 last store result) - I haven't added any salt so this seems super weird
Temp - 31C
CSI - 0.16

Over the past 4 days I have added 5 litres of MA (29%) with no reduction in the pH levels. I am concerned about adding in too much due to the smell/taste of the water. We don't use the pool for 1-2 hours after adding but as the pool is indoors, there is a distinct metallic smell in the air and taste to the water afterwards.

Previously when the pool installer added MA (by hand and through the controller feeding system), the smell was very strong and our skin ended up in a rash and itching like no tomorrow, so I want to avoid that happening again.

The FC is really high, I have turned down the SWCG to 20%, wondering if I should bypass it and have the pool on recirculation instead for a while. Need to keep it heated as the reason for getting it is to help my wife with chronic pain.

Last backwash was 5 days ago, along with vacuuming to waste due to a white powdery coating on the pool floor that I thought might be bi-carb but wasn't soluble.

Any advice/suggestions appreciated.

You shouldn’t be in the water with the chlorine over 12ppm when your CYA is that low. Turn the SWG off until it gets back down to 12ppm. Drop based pH tests tend to read high when the FC is over 10ppm. I’d have to wonder if that’s the case here.

 

[Maxy79]

You shouldn’t be in the water with the chlorine over 12ppm when your CYA is that low. Turn the SWG off until it gets back down to 12ppm. Drop based pH tests tend to read high when the FC is over 10ppm. I’d have to wonder if that’s the case here.

The FC test at the store showed 15ppm, the SWCG runs on auto from the controller which uses ORP to measure chlorine and is set to 720 ORP. The only way I can turn it off is to run the system manually and then turn down the generator (based on what I read in the manual).

 

[Bperry]

The FC test at the store showed 15ppm, the SWCG runs on auto from the controller which uses ORP to measure chlorine and is set to 720 ORP. The only way I can turn it off is to run the system manually and then turn down the generator (based on what I read in the manual).

ORP isn’t super reliable with CYA in the water, though I’ve read under 30ppm isn’t as bad.

But no one will believe any test results from a store especially when you have your own test kit.

 

[Mdragger88]

The FC test at the store showed 15ppm, the SWCG runs on auto from the controller which uses ORP to measure chlorine and is set to 720 ORP. The only way I can turn it off is to run the system manually and then turn down the generator (based on what I read in the manual).

Trust the kit- turn the swg to zero until fc falls- however you need to accomplish that.
Add 10ppm worth of cya (use the sock method) and re test in a day.
After fc falls to 10 or less re test ph & adjust if necessary to get in the 7’s.
For the salt test be sure you’re using the correct sample size & multiplier
The salt measurement is very close to double of the last one.
The TA is all over the place I’m not sure what you have going on there unless someone is dumping in baking soda when you’re not looking

 

[PoolStored]

Please slow down.

It is unclear what test results you are posting in this thread and in your pool math results. They look like some combination of pool store testing and clear choice test.

STOP.

Use your clear choice test kit. Do a full panel of tests and report them here and in your pool math logs. Do not use pool store test, and do not mix results.

Until that happens, we should not make recommendations, other than to turn your SWCG off.

the smell was very strong and our skin ended up in a rash and itching like no tomorrow

This is extremely concerning. pH is the #1 culprit of rash and itching. Until you get your FC down below 10, your pH test is unreliable.

If you have a strong smell, can you describe it? Is it "chlorine smell?" If so, check your test procedure and make sure you are testing CC correctly with your clear choice test kit.

I would not raise your CYA to 30ppm, or anything higher, until you lower your FC, particularly because you have an ORP controller. CYA above 20-30 creates issues with the ORP sensor. I would go to any manual mode you have to turn the SWCG off.

Do a full test with your kit and report THOSE results. I would add nothing else to your pool until you do.

 

[Maxy79]

Please slow down.

It is unclear what test results you are posting in this thread and in your pool math results. They look like some combination of pool store testing and clear choice test.

STOP.

Use your clear choice test kit. Do a full panel of tests and report them here and in your pool math logs. Do not use pool store test, and do not mix results.

Until that happens, we should not make recommendations, other than to turn your SWCG off.


This is extremely concerning. pH is the #1 culprit of rash and itching. Until you get your FC down below 10, your pH test is unreliable.

If you have a strong smell, can you describe it? Is it "chlorine smell?" If so, check your test procedure and make sure you are testing CC correctly with your clear choice test kit.

I would not raise your CYA to 30ppm, or anything higher, until you lower your FC, particularly because you have an ORP controller. CYA above 20-30 creates issues with the ORP sensor. I would go to any manual mode you have to turn the SWCG off.

Do a full test with your kit and report THOSE results. I would add nothing else to your pool until you do.

The smell was nothing like a chlorine smell, metallic and almost acidic. The smell isn’t there atm.

I have turned off the SWCG and taken the cover off the pool to help with FC. I have just added some CYA to a sock in the skimmer basket but can remove that.

The results I posted are from this morning’s test, I have called out where the results differ or appear to be significantly different. The only result that has been carried across from the store result is CYA as there is no measure below 30ppm.

 

[PoolStored]

I have just added some CYA to a sock in the skimmer basket but can remove that.

Take it out to allow FC to fall. Adding more will slow the process.

Can we assume the following?

Today I did a test with the following results:
FC - 29

Clear choice result?

CC - 0

Double check this...are you sure?

pH - 7.8 (test max - last store result and controller shows >8.5)

Clear choice is 7.8? If so, invalid as FC >=10. Let FC fall before you retest or adjust pH.

TA - 120 estimating (last store result was 105, result from todays test showed over 300)

If your Clear Choice Test (CCT) showed over 300...trust it.

CH - 275
CYA - <30 (5 based off last store result)

Hold off adding CYA until FC falls.

SALT - 6800 (3125 last store result) - I haven't added any salt so this seems super weird

Is 6800 with CCT?

Temp - 31C
CSI - 0.16

No worries for the moment.

 

[Maxy79]

Take it out to allow FC to fall. Adding more will slow the process.

Can we assume the following?


Clear choice result?

Double check this...are you sure?

Clear choice is 7.8? If so, invalid as FC >=10. Let FC fall before you retest or adjust pH.

If your Clear Choice Test (CCT) showed over 300...trust it.

Hold off adding CYA until FC falls.

Is 6800 with CCT?

No worries for the moment.

That is correct for all those. I did double check the CC and definitely 0, no change in colour after adding the detection reagent.

I will give it 10 mins and perform another test now the cover is off and post the results. I have removed the CYA sock.

 

[proavia]

It isn't going to fall below FC 10 if start FC was 29 in only 10 minutes.

 

[Maxy79]

It isn't going to fall below FC 10 if start FC was 29 in only 10 minutes.

Not expecting it to. The first set of readings was about 5 hours ago. A new set of readings was more for comparison from this morning.

 

[Maxy79]

Latest results
FC - 24
CC - 0
pH - 7.8
TA - 300
CH - 275
CYA - 0
Salt - 7000

 

[Mdragger88]

It will likely take days for fc to fall especially if there’s no uv exposure.

 

[RookiePick]

Without trying to sound like a jerk...

Your pool math logs are wild. 10FC to 50 FC in 12 days, Then it falls to 15FC in one day and then back to 30FC in 2 more days. The large additions of baking soda and MA. Salt more than doubling with no salt addition noted.

Are you confident in your last round of testing?

Are you confident in the volume of your pool, given you are not measuring changes in line with your expectations when adding chemicals?

I see your pool is marked as indoor and you have mentioned a cover. Your daily FC demand could be really low with very little loss to UV - you don't mention any sort of UV component in your equipment signature - unless you have a high swimmer load/pee party in there. Turn off the SWG for now as advised and let FC fall but make sure you know the g/hr rating of your cell and check your controller for some sort of "pool cover" mode. I suspect you will need the capacity to set single digit output % to your SWG at various times.

I suggest disabling the ORP functionality of your system until you get a good grasp on controlling the pool parameters with your CCL kit and pool math. There is no "set and forget" in pool land. You need to continually monitor your water so it seems simpler (to me) to directly control the FC level via your SWG settings than introduce an extra component that affects your FC levels but measures a different variable to do so. The connection between the two is really hazy (to me), so the direct correlation of observe needing more FC = increase cell output or pump runtime, continue to make observations and adjust to suit eliminates that uncertainty of "what is going to happen" if I were to make an adjustment on the ORP controller.

Once the pool is behaving in a consistent, predictable way to your management you could think about reintroducing the ORP and seeing if you can get it working in a predictable manner.

(might also be worthwhile pulling out your SWG manual and checking the min/max salt levels as you are getting up there, even for Aussie cells)

[/jerk]

 

[Maxy79]

Without trying to sound like a jerk...

Your pool math logs are wild. 10FC to 50 FC in 12 days, Then it falls to 15FC in one day and then back to 30FC in 2 more days. The large additions of baking soda and MA. Salt more than doubling with no salt addition noted.

Are you confident in your last round of testing?

Are you confident in the volume of your pool, given you are not measuring changes in line with your expectations when adding chemicals?

I see your pool is marked as indoor and you have mentioned a cover. Your daily FC demand could be really low with very little loss to UV - you don't mention any sort of UV component in your equipment signature - unless you have a high swimmer load/pee party in there. Turn off the SWG for now as advised and let FC fall but make sure you know the g/hr rating of your cell and check your controller for some sort of "pool cover" mode. I suspect you will need the capacity to set single digit output % to your SWG at various times.

I suggest disabling the ORP functionality of your system until you get a good grasp on controlling the pool parameters with your CCL kit and pool math. There is no "set and forget" in pool land. You need to continually monitor your water so it seems simpler (to me) to directly control the FC level via your SWG settings than introduce an extra component that affects your FC levels but measures a different variable to do so. The connection between the two is really hazy (to me), so the direct correlation of observe needing more FC = increase cell output or pump runtime, continue to make observations and adjust to suit eliminates that uncertainty of "what is going to happen" if I were to make an adjustment on the ORP controller.

Once the pool is behaving in a consistent, predictable way to your management you could think about reintroducing the ORP and seeing if you can get it working in a predictable manner.

(might also be worthwhile pulling out your SWG manual and checking the min/max salt levels as you are getting up there, even for Aussie cells)

[/jerk]

Hey @RookiePick, definitely not being a jerk.

As for my confidence in my testing... I am confident I am following along as directed with the test kit, the results are making me unsure of myself. I am new to managing a pool and the instructions I had been given at handover were very basic. The pool installer relied on the store testing as well and trusted the output from the controller (I am not so confident in the controller and the vendor manuals are very light on details). I haven't been able to work out what the expected output of the SWG is, which makes it difficult, along with to run the system with automatic start/stop times for the pump means having the SWG set to AUTO which obviously isn't producing the best results.

No idea on how to disable the ORP functionality and completely agree that the use of a different method of measurement (ORP vs FC) makes the whole process even more confusing.

Also not sure how my salt levels could be so high. I haven't added any salt for months, there isn't a salty taste to the water either.

All the problems started just after the shed was installed over the pool with the pH levels going out of whack first, then the store testing showing 0 TA, even after putting in ~60kg of bicarb soda, along with the rash and itchy skin.

Really appreciative of all the advice / help from everyone here. I might sound frustrated at times, but I am a time-poor newbie at this and trying to get it right.

 

[RookiePick]

First port of call is to get the equipment manufacturers instructions for all your equipment. Then you gotta read those puppies. Sorry about that

Is it possible that materials from the construction of the shed ended up in the pool?

 

[Maxy79]

I have gotten most of the vendor manuals, but INSRG's manuals are very 'user' focused with little to no technical detail, more a guide.

There were definitely materials from the construction getting into the pool. A full clean was done by the pool installer after the construction was completed though.

 

[RookiePick]

What has your pool installer said in response to the issues that have appeared since the shed went up? They cleaned the solids from the pool but you don't know what might have dissolved in there really. Did they use an external pump to clean the pool or vacuum to waste or into your sand filter? Have you backwashed your filter? Any observations there?

If you can list out your exact equipment that would be helpful. I am presuming you have the Vi-Chlorinator that has the pH control and ORP sensor?

It looks like you should be able to turn off the pH and ORP functions in the install menu (highlighted below). Set your pump run times and speeds via the Activate Timers menu and you can set your chlorinator output as you set the control to Automatic. Check your pool documentation to see if the swg cell size is indicated. The manufacturer says they do 3 cell sizes from 20g to 40g so it should stand out in the part number or description or look at the cell itself and see if it has a likely looking number on it (should confirm with manufacturer). You need this info to set up your schedule. You likely have a few days to do this as your FC falls back down. I'd still be running the pump with 0% SWG to keep things mixed up while you wait for this to happen.



Where has the pH value of 8.7 come from? If it is from the controller that might just be the highest value it can display. Have you got access to a calibrated digital pH meter that can read a full/wider range of values?

You really want to have a good set of data together before you add anything else to the pool IMO. Have you got ready access to mains water supply? Starting again (large water exchange) may be an option if you can't get it straightened out.

Sorry for the interrogation!

 

[Maxy79]

Well a quick update for anyone following along. After a week of keeping the pool cover off as much as possible and getting sunlight on the pool (what sunlight was able to get in anyway), along with keeping the SWG turned off, the CH level had dropped by around 2ppm, so still very high at 23ppm.

During this time I also performed 2 water changeouts, only down to the skimmer box and then refilled so not a huge amount by volume will no real change to the CH levels.

I ended up buying some Sodium Sulphite (Chem Out) to try and push the CH levels down. This has finally seen a reduction in the CH levels to a more reasonable 5ppm. Still a bit high but a lot better than what it was.

So my current test results today are:
FC - 5.0
CC - 0.0
pH - 7.8 (max reading from test - likely a lot higher)
TA - 800
CH - 225
CYA - 0
Salt - 5600 (Still quite high)

Now to try and bring down the pH and TA with muriatic acid over the next day or two. Not sure if there is such a thing as too much in one day but I don't want to flood it and have the pH / TA just plummet. I guess adding 1 litre and check after an hour or so should give me a good measure?

 

[Mdragger88]

For ph aim for mid 7’s with the “current” set at 7.8 in
PoolMath
Add what it says, test again in 30 minutes.
Repeat until you get a readable ph
Its going to be a tough go with a ta of 800