To use or Not to use winter floaters underneath a roll cover ??

[reino]

I have a pool (8 x 5 x 1,5 meter) in the French Alps. It consists of concrete walls with liner.

This year I have mounted a roll cover (hollow PVC slats (not the solar type), the roll is submerged at the bottom of the pool).

During winter the pool will freeze. The previous years I've put a diagonally line of winter floaters trough the pool as instructed by the pool builder to protect the concrete. What to do this winter, results in contradictory advises between the company where I bought the cover and the manufacturer.

1. There is consensus I should fully roll-out the cover during winter and let it freeze-in
2. The manufacturer writes in an online manual, that in case of heavy frost, one should put the winter floaters underneath the cover. But: The winter floaters should not 'lift the slats to much' so the will deform

and here it becomes 'vague'. The winter floaters will always lift the slats a little. Since the slats are heavy, it's like 1 or 2 cm. So I asked the manufacturer and the vendor what to do. Should I maybe use a specific type of floater, or no floater, or ...
I got these answers:

1. Vendor: You need to protect your concrete, so put the floaters underneath the cover. Deformation won't be a big issue.
2. Manufacturer: You do NOT need floaters. The pool cover will act as floater (and no explanation why they advise differently in the online manual)

Both parties are very slow and incomplete when answering.

Does anyone has got real experience with this situation? Can I trust the closed cover(which is on top of the water?!) to take enough pressure from the concrete walls (to be honest I find the concept of the floaters confusing anyway - because the floater is only in the top 30cm of water, and below it, is one big chunk of ice. But that at least has proven itself the last years).

thxs for the help!

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! This time of year, we have many pool owners who are closing their concrete/plaster pools. But our process is a bit different as you can tell from reading our Pool School - Closing an In Ground Pool page. While it's not uncommon for a few inches or water near the surface to freeze, owners protect the structure of the pool and its plumbing by using the steps in that link provided with relatively good success.

Perhaps review that page and let us know if this is something you can do for your pool. If you have any questions, we have lots of members willing to help.

 

[reino]

Hi Texas Splash, thxs!
I read the steps. Most of them I also take. I do not see any freeze protection measure for the pool itself though. Without the rolldeck the previous years I put in a chain of these floaters. It should take the pressure off the concrete (although ice will be also underneath it).


So basicly my question is; should I also put them underneath my rolldeck

(images below are the roll deck under construction - and the slats not yet attached to each other)







In the Northern states / mountain area's people will also have large amounts of ice in their pool I assume. I wonder of / how the protect it.

Regards,
Reino

 

[riley00dog]

I can’t answer your question, but your pool looks beautiful. Couldyou post a photo of the whole pool?

 

[reino]

Hi Riley00dog,
To be honest those images are just quickly grabbed from Google to show the materials used.

But here is the real-deal:

View attachment 88025



Here you see the submerged roll deck under construction (without cover)
View attachment 88026

 

[Texas Splash]

Reino, most owners who cover their pools here use solid, mesh, or fabric type covers. They help to keep the leaves, debris, and in some cases excess water from entering the pool, but don't really help with the freezing temps. So in some extreme northern areas a certain amount of surface water is expected to freeze. That's why all the other precautions like removing water from the water lines and equipment items, to include taking protective measure in some of the most exposed areas like the poolside skimmer. There they will use various items like a "Gizmo", or pieces of pool floater foam, even an empty milk jug, to absorb expanding ice. But under the covers, no so much that I'm aware of.

Still, I asked another member who has extensive experience with winter closings to look at your situation specifically. I'm sure together our member swill help give you some good advice.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way .... WOW! What a view.

 

[reino]

thxs! Look forward to it.

This type of roll deck is strong enough to walk over it. This is needed for French safety legislation.

I must say so far I am very happy with the roll deck. It is fully automated (I can even open and close it with an app remote - so I can check the pool with the camera when not there). It also saves amazingly much water & chlorine. We have a lot of sun, wind & temperature difference during night and day. Before we had this cover, we used over 200 liters (52 gallon) of chlorine and accordingly PH neutral. Last season this dropped top less than 40 liter (10 gallon) and less than 3 gallon PH neutral. Water vaporation dropped from also with 500%.

 

[Catanzaro]

Reino:

I can not open your pictures, only the uploaded images are visible. I know that in 2017 I flew over the Italian Alps from Rome, and what a view. We were probably over France as well for a short period of time.

Regarding your pool, I would recommend lowering the water so ice expansion will not reach the cover. In addition, your diagonal line of winter floaters trough the pool should be used as instructed by the pool builder to protect the concrete.

I do not believe the winter floaters will 'lift the slats to much', and if they do, the lowering of the water from 3"-6" will allow for expansion.

Here in the states, pools are built either all concrete, steel walls and liners, or even concrete walls and liners. Over the last few years, walls have been built with polymer plastic materials. Even in the coldest regions of the United States, the only areas that pool owners are concerned for ice expansion is the tile border line (all concrete pools), and in the skimmers due to ice expansion. One way to protect the tiles is by keeping the water level below them, and the skimmers use Gizzmo's or other methods for ice expansion. In summary, your whole goal is to use whatever methods you need for ice expansion, which I feel your diagonal floaters will do the trick, in addition to lowering your water.

 

[reino]

Hi Catanzaro,

thxs for your reply. You probably flew over our house Maybe this link to Google images works.

The slats cover consists of hollow PVC slats, so they actually float on the water. They also must float - because they need the water to keep them cool to prevent distortion. Here also the issue comes in with the diagonal winter floater; they lift the slats a little at the point they cross. My worries are between distorted slats and 'cracked concrete'.

But: Your answer triggered me.

As I understand you are saying the only frost protection is needed for a top layer op tiles (I do not have those - it is fully liner on the inside).

A have been wondering a long time what the use of this diagonal string of floaters is. They only protect the first 10 inch from freezing. The 4 feet below just become a big piece of ice. I thought it might me some 'mystic process' - to take pressure of the top layer. But underneath the 'top layer' with the floaters, a new 'top layer' without floaters will grow, since the frost goes from top to bottom. No pool-maker has ever been able to give an understandable explanation.

So could I conclude: I firm concrete pool with liner on the inside needs no extra frost protection; the water just can freeze in it?

 

[Catanzaro]

So could I conclude: I firm concrete pool with liner on the inside needs no extra frost protection; the water just can freeze in it?

What has worked in the past is what I would do in the present. We are not concerned about pools and water freezing, only winterizing the skimmer housing, returns for water in the plumbing, water in the plumbing for the skimmers and the main drain. Also, anything out in the cold like a heater, pump, filter, etc. should also be winterized.

I remember going up and around. The flight attendant stated that they were the Italian Alps, but we probably were quickly over France. They disappeared pretty quickly and there was snow on top of them.