Tips to make the Liquidator liveable.....

revstriker

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2008
117
Texas
mrafal said:
One more data point that might be helpful. I set the flow meter to 3, shut off the inlet valve and timed how long it took for the level to drop a half inch. By this crude measure, I get a flow rate of about a 1/3 gallon/minute or 20 gallons an hour.
Great idea! But a question: As the level drops, doesn't the outlet valve slowly close which would reduce the flow? To test this, try it again, but this time, use something to hold the outlet float up.
 

mrafal

LifeTime Supporter
Nov 2, 2007
69
Austin, TX
revstriker said:
Great idea! But a question: As the level drops, doesn't the outlet valve slowly close which would reduce the flow? To test this, try it again, but this time, use something to hold the outlet float up.

I tried it first going for a full inch and indeed, the float started to close. So I redid it to a half inch. At a half inch, the flow stayed the same (according to the flow meter).
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
The flow indicator that comes with the LQ is nothing more then it's name, an indicator. You will need to purchase a flow meter to measure flow. I have a flow meter for both units (LQ & pH Adjuster) and a flow indicator down stream of the LQ.


On the topic of flow:

Flow Indicator reads: 3.5
Flow Meter reads: 22 GPH

If adjustments are made to the flow on either side of the LQ, it will impact the flow indicator or flow meter differently. For this reason, I record my daily observation then test the water. After testing, I make any adjustments if they are needed. For the entire month of June (record breaking heat wave here) the adjustments to the flow where between 20 GPH - 22 GPH. On average, the adjustment is made twice a week. Mainly to control the decent of the FC in the pool. I would lower the flow rate after I have refilled the LQ with more then 3 gal, for there will be a rise of FC going to the pool. I like the FC in the pool to stablize around 5ppm then drop slowly. 21 GPH seems to be my sweet point for the best decent when the LQ has about 2-3 gal of bleach in it.

On the topic of calcium buildup, I check my LQ again and found only a very light scum line on the black funnel fill area. I was able to wipe it off with my finger with very little pressure. I check my valves and didn’t see any accumulations. I pulled the Tygon tubing and saw nothing forming in the line nor did I see any on the flow indicator or the standard PVC ball valve.

On the topic of air getting into the system, I noticed that when the pool pump stops and the solar actuator is still open that air is then let into LQ system. I have seen some drain down with the solar system actuator is closed too. Neither has yet caused the pump to loose prime. Since I am using the solar to cool my pool between 3am – 7am, I am no awake to see the priming. So I did some basic tests during the day and found that the pump takes about a minute or less to prime. When all that air is pushed through the system, it makes for a nice bubble show in the pool.
 

mrafal

LifeTime Supporter
Nov 2, 2007
69
Austin, TX
Sabot said:
On the topic of flow:

Flow Indicator reads: 3.5
Flow Meter reads: 22 GPH

Thanks Sabot,

That is pretty consistent with the measurement I made (~20GPH @ 3).

Can you tell me what flow meter you are using? Sounds like it might be useful.

Marc
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
It from Dryer Instruments. Called Mini-Master® Flowmeter. Could not find a better yet cheaper meter at $19.50 each! The meter in it's stock form comes with a SS float, which is needed due to the flow rate. I am testing it to see how long it lasts. I am also testing the standard Buna-N O-Ring. They do offer a Viton O-Ring but at a small cost but you will have to wait for a few weeks. I can get the any O-Ring I want local. It is a small meter, about the same size of the indicator.

SPECIFICATIONS -- MMA
Service: Compatible gases and liquids.
Wetted Materials: Body: Nylon 12; O-rings: Buna-N (optional materials available); Float: Black glass, K Monel, Stainless Steel, Tungsten Carbide.
Temperature Limit: 130°F (54°C).
Pressure Limit: 100 psi (6.9 bar) with compression fitting. 50 psi (3.4 bar) with tubing clamp.
Accuracy: ±4% full scale.
Process Connection: 5/16" OD for push on rubber or plastic tubing with provided spring tubing clamp. Connect to rigid tubing with double compression fitting.
Weight: 1 oz (28.35 g).

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/flow/S ... ce.cfm#CRA
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
Just keep your feet on the ground for we get what we pay for! :) Make sure to shelter the meter from direct sunlight. I went a tad overboard and installed a Orbit Sprinkler System Weather Resistant Outdoor Mounted Control Timer Box at Home Depot. (Say that ten times!) I did a little mod to the box and hung it on the fence. I will post some pictures soon. My solar guy said my setup looked like a meth lab.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VYGMF2
 

mrafal

LifeTime Supporter
Nov 2, 2007
69
Austin, TX
Sabot said:
Just keep your feet on the ground for we get what we pay for! :) Make sure to shelter the meter from direct sunlight. I went a tad overboard and installed a Orbit Sprinkler System Weather Resistant Outdoor Mounted Control Timer Box at Home Depot. (Say that ten times!) I did a little mod to the box and hung it on the fence. I will post some pictures soon. My solar guy said my setup looked like a meth lab.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VYGMF2

That doesn't look too overboard to me, but then I'm clearly not the best judge of these things. My Liquidator is inside my garage (the pool equipment is directly behind the garage). So it is completely out of the sun.
 

Water_man

LifeTime Supporter
Jun 7, 2008
390
Brookline, MA
Sabot said:
On the topic of calcium buildup, I check my LQ again and found only a very light scum line on the black funnel fill area. I was able to wipe it off with my finger with very little pressure. I check my valves and didn’t see any accumulations. I pulled the Tygon tubing and saw nothing forming in the line nor did I see any on the flow indicator or the standard PVC ball valve.

Congrats! You are a member of an elite club called "NWSIML" (No White Stuff In My Liquidator) !! :wave:
I think there are only three or four members in this exclusive club.
Please post your pool chem including borates, if applicable, and any other stuff you have in your water. This will help us to figure out how to eliminate the deposits.
 

duraleigh

Admin
Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
In The Industry
Apr 1, 2007
34,518
Sebring, Florida
The meter in it's stock form comes with a SS float,
For a while, I worked with several low-flow meters. The Cl ate everyone that was stainless steel.
 

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Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
That is what I hear. For the price and so I can start to learn the actual flow rates to the feeders, it's worth the price. I do want to replace them with a better meter, just have to wait to find one on ebay.

In an Elite Club? Wow.... I take it! :) Looking back over my log, I saw that I put my LQ into service on 2/9/08 at 4pm.

Below are the AVERAGED daily readings for the entire month of June:

TC: 4.18
FC: 3.77
CC: .32
PH: 7.71 (CQ Pro7)
PH: 7.45 (pH Tester)
TA: 65.54
CA: 339.60
CYA: 62.50

Test Equipment:
-TF100 Test Kit
-ColorQ Pro7
-Oakton pHTestr 30

Water Temp: 88.0
Air Temp: 94.0 (Sensor is in the shade. Record June: Hottest on Record: 20-plus days with over 100 degree days)
LQ Flow Rate: 19.74 GPH
pH Adj Flow Rate: 20.70 GPH
Pool Flow Rate: 80 GPM
Filter Pressure: 16.5 PSI

Flowmeter Info:
LQ & pH Flowmeters: Mini-Master by Dryer Instruments
Pool Flowmeter: Blue-White F-300

Chemical Usage
6% Bleach: 10.04 Gal (LQ)
Muriatic Acid: 80oz (down from 5.66 gal in April)
Sodium Bisulfate: 2.15 Gal Dry
Baking Soda: 1.28 Gal Dry

<Told ya, I capture a tad bit of data... ;) >

Here are a few pictures:
DSC01883.jpg

Equipment Pad w/LQ & pH Adjuster from HASA

DSC01891.jpg

LQ & the pH Adjuster side by side

DSC01898.jpg

Control Box which houses the flowmeters, Tygon tubing feeding to and from.

DSC01899.jpg

Modifed the inside to house the flowmeters

DSC01900.jpg

Close up of the flowmeters.

DSC01908.jpg

LQ.jpg

Inside of the LQ. The pump is off and the LQ has drained all the way down. You can see the brownish stuff on the bottom which has fallen out of the bleach.

DSC01904.jpg

DSC01906.jpg

Inside of the pH Adjuster

DSC01894.jpg

DSC01896.jpg

Connection points for the inflow side of the LQ and the pH Adjuster. Second picture shows the ball valve between connection point and the chem tanks.

DSC01887.jpg

DSC01889.jpg

Connection points for the outflow side of the LQ and the pH Adjuster. Second picture shows the ball valve between connection point and the chem tanks.

DSC01886.jpg

DSC01884.jpg

Shows the installation of my pool flow meter. Notice I had to replumb to ensure I have clean water going to and from the meter.
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
As mentioned in other threads, I have been seeing air getting into the pool system via the chem tank systems (Ie. LQ & pH Adjuster). When the pool pump stops, the LQ & pH Adjuster by design drains down into the suction side. As this occurs, the float for the inlet opens (as per the design to allow water in while pump is on) letting air into the pressure side of my pool system. Over the coarse of a few hours the pump loses prime and takes a while to self prime. (Noticed this morning this was happening. Normally I am at work and the pump is running fine when I get home in the afternoon.) I sat down to think... All I could come up with is installing the PVC Check valve between the chem tanks and the flow meter box. Maybe the designers found out this issue and is why they included them? I am going to see if it works over the long weekend, since I will be off until Tuesday. A note on the flow, after installing them, I noticed a small drop about 2 GPH on the flow meter. I adjusted the flow back up by 2 GPH. Let's see if the check valve will prevent air from going up the line and into my system... Fingers crossed!

Happy 4'th to all!!
 

Water_man

LifeTime Supporter
Jun 7, 2008
390
Brookline, MA
Sabot said:
Below are the AVERAGED daily readings for the entire month of June:

TC: 4.18
TC: 3.77
CC: .32
PH: 7.71 (CQ Pro7)
PH: 7.45 (pH Tester)
TA: 65.54
CA: 339.60
CYA: 62.50

Pleeeeease say you forgot to mention 50 ppm borates! :mrgreen:
Because otherwise you threw a monkey wrench into the most updated theory that made sense!
Now we're in the dark again!
Enjoy your system and the 4th!
 

cruzmisl

Well-known member
May 26, 2007
185
Hmm, not sure about all the priming issues. Below is my pump after sitting overnight and my liquidator. As you can see the pump has a few air bubbles but those are always there even when running. The LQ is mounted on the same level as the pump and all of the equipment is located about 10" above the water line. I only have the single check valve on the intake side. Nothing on the outlet side. I have no issues with prime.

Initially when I put the LQ in I had a TON of WS. I actually had to replace the tubing twice and clean it with MA. Not so this year. I had a light film of the stuff but last year it was so bad I could flake it off. Why the difference? Not too sure. I don't have any of that brown stuff at the bottom either.

Numbers are as follows,

FC: 3ppm
CC: 0
pH: 7.5 (never steady due to high winds, rain and water feature but can vary from 7.2 to 7.8)
TA: 80ppm
CH: 80ppm
CYA: 40ppm

No borates

liqui.jpg


pump.jpg
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
No borates here. I don't want to use them since my dog drinks from the pool. Borates are not good for animals.

:punkrock:

I don't recall any issues after install until recent. May have always happen, don't know. I took out the inlet float this morning and looked at it. Not a drop of calcium on it. It works as designed. My solar heater may have an impact since I am using it to cool in the morning too. The valve may not close prior to the pump stopping due to the temp control. I wonder if the pressure of the water in the solar might draw the air backwards when it drains after the pump stops? Sound plausible?
 

mrafal

LifeTime Supporter
Nov 2, 2007
69
Austin, TX
Folks,

I may have a clue. As I have said before, I have been running since March with no white stuff.

Last week I decided to raise my CYA from 30 to 50 to reduce my chlorine consumption. This morning I added bleach to my Liquidator and presto, I now have white stuff. I don't see any on the float valve, But I see precipitate in suspension and a fairly thick layer inside the funnel. None of the other chemistry has changed. Today's readings are:

FC 5
TC 5
TA 60
CH 450
CYA 40 (Added CYA last weeked to raise from 30 to 50)
Borates 50
Temp 86

So it seems that there is a strong connection between WS and CYA. My CYA has not increased quite as high as I expected. Are we sure this is calcium and not CYA coming out of suspension.

Marc
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
On the priming issue:

Check the system this morning and now there is enough water left in the tanks to prevent air from being sucked in and cause my pump to lose prime. I installed the check valves on the intake side between the tank and my flowmeters. For other's who have the similar prime issue, try installing the check valve between the LQ and you filter (pressure side of the LQ).

Cool!
 

chem geek

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Mar 28, 2007
12,083
San Rafael, CA USA
mrafal said:
So it seems that there is a strong connection between WS and CYA. My CYA has not increased quite as high as I expected. Are we sure this is calcium and not CYA coming out of suspension.
CYA won't precipitate even at the higher pH and FC we've been looking at. However, it's possible for some undissolved CYA particles to accelerate calcium carbonate precipitation. Also, I did mention in this post how a higher CYA will be worse since it causes a higher pH at higher FC levels.

Sabot's situation is interesting since his numbers would indicate a tendency towards the white stuff problem, but again the saturation index doesn't predict scaling -- only the tendency or possibility of scaling. Sabot, can you test the FC level of the water in your Liquidator near the outlet valve that gets the white stuff in other people's systems? Maybe the flow rate is faster in your system. I presume you never used Borax even for raising the pH, correct? Did you ever add anything that might be a scale inhibitor?

By the way, one can't really simulate what happens with a bucket test because the amount of precipitate from one ounce of 6% bleach to one gallon of pool water would be less than a tenth of a teaspoon. The Liquidator builds up scale because there is fresh pool water supplying additional calcium and carbonate constantly flowing through the system.

Richard
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
I never used Borax (I still have the box that we bought back in Oct when we open the pool.) I have not used any products besides the normal BBB chems. I am not a fan of adding chems to the pool. I normally run chems thru this board before a buy. So far, not many are recommended. :)
 

chem geek

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Mar 28, 2007
12,083
San Rafael, CA USA
Sabot,

I do notice that you have the pH Adjuster in addition to The Liquidator. This will tend to lower the pH a little for water flowing back into The Liquidator, but I doubt it's very much (you show a combo diagram in this post).

Richard
 

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