Testing out the Culator...

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From an engineering perspective, the only way to make this technology work well would be to use the active polymers beads in a vertical filter column and pump a large quantity of the pool water through that column. It would be much like how a household water softener works - all the water is forced through the ion exchange resin beads allowing the Ca ions to be swapped with Na ions. Just putting these beads in a cloth bag and hanging it in the skimmer seems to me to be the least efficient way to utilize the metal ion exchange properties of the material. But then again, the marketing and sales teams rarely care about a product working effectively....

One other thought would be if the material was available in a form that it could be used to charge the filter with (like adding DE after a backwash), then it could be incorporated into the filter media itself (assuming it doesn't plug up a filter). You could then backwash or clean your filter after the metal ions have been removed.

Treefiter,

Do you have reverse osmosis treatment services available in your area? RO would help remove the metal ions from the pool water but it tends to be an expensive option and you'd have to totally rebalance the pool water after treatment. Also, you'd need to nail down the source of your metal ions to try to mitigate further contamination of the pool water.
 
No scientific contribution to make here, but tree filter, here are some things I've tried on my pool, which had high iron after swamp conversion, and a steady though mitigated amount of iron as its in our well water (mitigated because I have had my fill water tap connected to my water softener and I use a hose filter when adding water.)

1. Tried culator last season. Not much of an observable difference. Eg. If ph got high and sequestrant was wearing off, culator presence did not in my case stop staining, though it may have reduced it. Could not tell from tests.

2. Tried a madcap hydrogen peroxide treatment that smallpooldad tried in his Hawaiian quest against iron-laden soil that regularly drifts into his pool. If you can find that thread, its worth a read, because it seemed to really do something for him.

Pool was sparkly, clean, beautiful afterward just as if I'd done AA test...didn't get an iron read at all (but I usually don't). Over the season, however, staining returned as sequestrant wore off, so I couldn't actually tell if iron level in fact reduced. On opening this year, adequate steps staining assured me that I had not eradicated iron in the pool :)

3. Hose filtering of fill water definitely helps based on the control difference before I started doing that

4. In my case, for reasons unknown, metal magic seems to "hold" better in my pool, meaning it doesn't seem to wear off as fast as jack. This year I did a five-bottle treatment of metal magic instead of AA, maintained it fairly heavily but using less product than with jacks, and staining has not returned. Happiest experiment yet.

As a pool owner, I think it would be wonderful if one of ya invented a filter that could affix to the main filter inline with the metal-removing media like that used in water softener's. however, the challenge might be the volume f water moving through the media...eg you cannot fill a pool with a water softener b/c it has o regenerate so much. You're also using a lot of magnesium which in itself could theoretically lead to different staining...;)

In you case, tree filter, what if you used a bucket to test, let the sequester wear off, or oxidize it to try to get a "true potential iron reading" ? Just a though!
 
SunnyOptimism, No RO available in my area. I'm in the northeast, and its easier to just replace water than to use expensive filtration methods. I'm just hoping to find a way to get rid of iron without resorting to extreme measures like water replacement. My hopes were that a $30 Culator and some sequestrant could save a customer from replacing $1000 in water. Not to mention even with new water, its only a matter of time before someone puts the hose in the pool and introduces more iron.

SwampWoman, Thanks for the input. Your idea about using a bucket of water to see what happens when the sequestrant wears off might work. Unfortunately, there isn't really a way to be sure if the sequestrant has worn off, or if it is still working to some extent. I did try to oxidize samples at one point. I added large amounts of chlorine, and I tried adding acid as well. In both cases, I still got the same very low readings for iron.

I think the big thing with the Culator is that without accurate measurement of the iron levels, we just don't know how well it works. Sure, it might show some iron staining on the bag, and the beads will be covered in iron too. But chances are the skimmer basket will look like that too. So is it the Culator's technology, or just the fact that there is significant aeration happening at the skimmer causing dissolved iron to oxidize on nearby surfaces which would include the skimmer basket and the Culator. I suppose it would be just as effective to keep replacing the removable plastic parts like return jets and skimmer baskets once they are coated in iron stains. I could buy a new return jet and skimmer basket for less than a single Culator pack. For that matter, it would be even cheaper to just keep cleaning them in an Ascorbic Acid solution.

Another piece of this puzzle is the role of sequestrant. Sequestrants bind to metals preventing them from precipitating in the form of stains on pool surfaces. However, they also bind to metals resulting in clouded water and eventually a settled precipitate that can be vacuumed out. These seem to be exact opposite behaviors, but they are caused by the same sequestrant.

Another puzzle I've been thinking about with all of this is why does water turn green or brown due to iron in some situations, but not in others. I have seen many pools with discolored water that never have stains, but I have also seen many that seem to acquire staining over time, but the water never discolors. So what is the deciding factor? I realize it is usually the sudden addition of chlorine that oxidizes the iron and results in discolored water, but if we added large amounts of chlorine immediately after an AA treatment, we would probably just put the iron back on the liner. So what is the difference? Is it particulate material suspended in the water creating nucleation sites? Is it something about the water chemistry (ie. pH, DO, etc) It seems to me that if we could figure out how to force dissolved metals to precipitate into suspension, we could filter them out reasonably easy.
 
SunnyOptimism said:
Well, for the small sum of ~$12,000, AquaLabz will license and sell their RO equipment to you and then you can be the only guy in the Northeast doing RO service on pool water. Sounds like an amazing business opportunity for you ;)
Click to expand...

Water is reasonably cheap here in the northeast. I can't see too much demand for RO, unless it can be done cheap. There would really only be a demand for it where well water has significant metal concentrations and can't be used for partial drain and fill. Even in those situations a truckload of water would usually do the trick at $4-600. I'm thinking that would be about the same price as RO service, and a water delivery takes about an hour vs. several days of filtration. I suppose with some good marketing one could create a little bit more demand for RO, but marketing just adds to the cost. It is an interesting thought though. I might have to look into this a little bit.
 
Out her in the West, RO services run about $300-$500 including chemical rebalance post-RO treatment. Water is expensive here, but a total drain and fill would only cost~$300 + chemicals, give or take. So even out here RO is an expensive option. It can make sense though if draining the pool could damage plaster as there are times of the year here where it is so hot out that you can crack your plaster if you expose it from a drain.

You could market it as "why waste perfectly good water...be GREEN....etc"
 
The Taylor K-1599 is similar in that it tests for organic phosphorous-based chemicals and is interfered by polyphosphate and orthophosphate. So in a pool that uses a LOT of metal sequestrant over an extended period of time so could have built up a lot of orthophosphates from breakdown of the metal sequestrant, you might want to measure orthophosphate first (say, with the Taylor K-1106 or for higher ranges the Taylor K-1110).
 
chem geek said:
The Taylor K-1599 is similar in that it tests for organic phosphorous-based chemicals and is interfered by polyphosphate and orthophosphate. So in a pool that uses a LOT of metal sequestrant over an extended period of time so could have built up a lot of orthophosphates from breakdown of the metal sequestrant, you might want to measure orthophosphate first (say, with the Taylor K-1106 or for higher ranges the Taylor K-1110).
Click to expand...

I do have a phosphate test. I think its by aquachek. But wouldn't this be telling me I have broken down sequestrant rather than sequestrant that is actively binding to metals?
 

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I just got off the phone with one of the scientists at the company that makes the CuLator. He was extremely helpful and informative, and seemed to have a reasonable explanation for all of my questions.

He also offered to analyze a water sample from one of the two pools I've been trying it out on as a courtesy. They also are offering water analysis for metals as a service to pool owners at about half the cost of using an outside lab. They are essentially testing samples at cost in order to help people see that their product does in fact work.

I'll be sending him a few samples as soon as I can get to the Post Office. I'm really looking forward to finding out how much iron they removed from these pools.
 
I sent in samples from the two pools I've been working with. The first pool, where I think the CuLator is working I sent in a before and after sample. The other pool I just sent in a current sample because there has been some weird stuff happening in this pool that I don't see happen in other pools.

I sent the samples out Saturday morning, and I got a call from the lab this afternoon. In an interesting turn of events, they told me that none of the samples showed the presence of metals. They filtered the samples and tested them for dissolved metals. They are going to run them again, but they will digest the samples first to pick up any metals that might have come out of solution. Hopefully they will provide some results that suggest the CuLator is working.
 
I heard back again from the lab at CuLator. This time they digested the samples in Nitric acid and ran then unfiltered. The results indicated no metals were present yet again. I suspect something is going wrong in that lab. Either that or something happened in all three of my samples.

They told me that they often see organic staining confused for iron staining. I really don't think that is the case. I don't think organic staining will turn fiberglass stairs yellow-orange, and the stains shouldn't come back after a week or two. I'm going to try to discuss things a bit further with their scientist, but I'm thinking I may have to send out samples to another lab and see what they come up with.
 
I forgot, did you try rubbing the stains with a trichlor puck when you first encountered them?

Color can be a very tricky thing. There are many organic compounds (especially cyclic ring organics) that can produce almost every color under the sun. So I don't think color is a very good indicator of what kind of stain exists.


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I did not, but both pools were exposed to very high FC levels prior to the stain removal. In both pools, the stains came back shortly after the stain removal. The stains were lifted the second time by adding more sequestrant. In one of these pools, the CuLator bag is turning orange. In the other, the bag isn't turning orange, but the stains have come back on the liner. I threw a few vitamin C tablets in, and they cleared small areas in the staining. It all sounds like iron to me.

I wouldn't think organic stains would show up in a clean and clear pool. Am I wrong about that?
 
Hmmmm.....there's high FC (shock level) and then there's mind-blowing high levels. Putting a trichlor puck on something is, locally speaking, going to likely have hundreds of ppm worth of chlorine concentration right near the surface of the puck. So I do think it is possible to have organic stains even if the FC is high. Many organic compounds break down very slowly from exposure to chlorine and a visible organic stain is a concentrated region of organic products. Decomposed leaf stains for instance can hang around for quite some time even under high FC water conditions.

Now, if a stain is coming back in the exact same spot, then that's a different story. In plaster pools, that would a rebar end that was not bent back enough and is too close to the plaster surface. In a fiberglass structure, I'm not sure how those are constructed (one continuous molded piece or several pieces joined together). If joints are present near the stain, then I'd say you have some kind of infiltration. If the stain keeps developing in a solid region of fiberglass, then there's gotta be some defect there or foreign matter embedded in the FG causing the problem.

I wonder if anyone on the thread here has experience with fiberglass liner construction and materials. What kinds of defects are possible, contaminants, etc.


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This is quite the mystery and I'm very curious to find out what happens.

The part I can't reconcile is that the "before" sample isn't registering iron. When did you take the "before" sample? Eg. After you shocked? If so, maybe it had already oxidized out (into stain?)

Is the other "weird" pool vinyl by any chance? Or is it also fiberglass? With vinyl, there's always a remote chance of an under-liner fungus growth that can look like faint iron staining, for which there is an experimental treatment of treating the surrounding perimeter ground by watering in ferrous sulphate.

If the weird pool is vinyl, gets stains back, doesn't appear to have iron and isn't discoloring the culator, this is a possibility in theory ;)

With low levels of iron, in my experience, the first place you see/notice it is on the steps (faintly), the drains, the jets and the skimmer face.

Just out of curiosity, I bought a Lamotte iron test kit. My pool has behaved this summer with metal magic and I do not have staining (except the historic areas that never entirely clean up.)

So I was kind of surprised that the test still read 1 ppm.

Please keep us posted...you may e hot on the trail of some new staining culprit ;) then again...occam's razor...if it looks like iron, stains like iron...then its probably iron!
 
BTW, which one is the "weird" pool...the one you posted the pics for?

This is totally deep-end-mystery-stuff...but there was a guy on this thread last summer who had tan/brownsh stains who'd never had em before. Some pool tech told him the staining was from an extremely high phosphate level and told him to use phosfloc (commercial level). He did and reported that the stains went away...brown orangsh goo flocced to the bottom and he vacuumed it up...but I never saw any follow up posts and I have not yet found his thread, which left my subscription on the bb changeover. So it all had made me wonder if in pools that get a lot of sequestrant over the years, the spent stuff combines but maybe picks up the odd iron particle and creates some kind of phosphate-calcium-iron stain residual.

Totally wild-arsed-guess-theory and I can't quantify a shred of it, but just thought I'd share in case you were looking for ideas ;)
 

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