Suction side leak driving me bonkers - please help!

[TexasDogs]

I have been plagued with a suction side leak for a while and I'm just stumped. A few months ago, I had all my equipment replaced, which was long overdue (installed Pentair WhisperFlo VS Pump, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter, and IC40 SWCG). Shortly after that, I had a pressure side leak repaired, but I'm still left with a suction side leak that is plaguing me. I am a far cry from getting the pump basket full of water, and I see quite a few bubbles coming out of the returns. It seems to be worse when I'm draining only from the spa. And when I circulate spa only, there are so many small bubbles that the water looks cloudy. Also sure is making it fun to manage ph...

Things I've done:

1. Checked skimmer - weir door not stuck, air not being drawn in
2. Inspected/cleaned pump basket lid o-ring, applied lube and reinstalled
3. Inspected pump basket drain plug, applied lube and reinstalled
4. Inspected Jandy Neverlube valve that selects pump inlet from spa/pool. One of the small o-rings was kinked. I replaced all of them, lubed up, and reinstalled. Didn't fix the problem. After several weeks, decided to make sure I didn't mess it up, so opened it up again today and it looks fine. That said, I did notice the PVC coming into it from pool/spa was cut rather poorly - see pictures. Could that be a factor somehow? I also noticed what seems to be glue on the outside of where the plumbing comes into the valve - not sure how that could be the problem, but maybe indicative of something?
5. Detached coupling to pump inlet. I was pretty disappointed with what I saw there and thought maybe it was a smoking gun. There was hard stuff, presumably glue, on the pump inlet. To be honest, I'm not sure where there was even glue in the vicinity. I did my best to neatly scrape it off, lubed up the gasket, and reinstalled. The gasket did have some very small depressions in it, but didn't seem like it would be a problem. And this wouldn't explain why my problem is worse in spa mode. Anyways, reinstalled, and still no dice.

It's really hard to get pictures that illustrate what's happening in the pump basket, but there really does seem to be a lot more air getting in when I have it drawnig from the spa only.

Anybody have any idea what to do next? Wondering if I should try replacing the the 3way valve for the pump inlet. I'm not in love with the joints, even though I can't quite confirm they're the problem. But, I don't really wanna go down the route if it's fruitless. Other question - is that gasket on the pump inlet union bad enough it could be the problem? Or nuclear option - is it time for my to get the leak detection pros out (again...)

 

[Texas Splash]

Suction leaks can be so frustrating. To confirm, you had zero air problems before the equipment was replaced? Sounds like there were some questionable issues before the new equipment swap since you had a pressure leak repaired already.

Of all the pics, I think the pump's inlet union gasket has me most concerned. It looks a little chewed up. But there are other questionable areas. Before tearing things apart, since this is all on the suction side, you could try applying some caulking around PVC joint connections. If air is getting pulled in by one of those, caulking should let you know and perhaps even keep it sealed. If that doesn't improve anything, the caulking can always be removed later.

Since the air seems to be worse when pulling water from the spa, that certainly is another clue. But your plumbing looks pretty simple, two suctions pipes coming up out of the ground to the pump - from spa and pool I assume? It doesn't improve if you pull water from the pool only?

 

[TexasDogs]

It sure is frustrating. I'm trying to recall back, and I can't absolutely swear I had no suction side leak before the equipment swap, but if there was, it definitely wasn't this bad. At that point I was a lot more distracted by my pressure side leak and all the water I was losing (that was a painful fix).

To answer your other question, I think it improves when I pull only from the pool, but it definitely doesn't eliminate the leak. My definition of improves is certainly objective, though. Hard to spot a huge difference in the pump basket, though I do really think I see more air coming out of the returns.

I guess you're right - caulking can't hurt, and if I do it systematically, can maybe help me find the culprit to do a real fix. Any particular recommendations for caulk type to use for this?

Thanks!

 

[Texas Splash]

Any particular recommendations for caulk type to use for this?

Something simple like from Walmart. Typical outdoor silicone caulking in a tube.

 

[TexasDogs]

Well, in the meantime, I used soap bubbles with a little more finesse and attention detail and I think I've confirmed the inlet union is a contributing factor. Struggling to find just the gasket, at least one that looks like what I have. Do I need to just order a new union? Wondering if I should just replace the whole thing, since the glue job was pretty bad and it was hard to clean/smooth the mating surface.

Problem with replacing it is that I only have the tiniest sliver of exposed pipe before the coupling, so I don't know how I'd get a good new joint... Thoughts?

I could push the pump back a few inches, which would be better anyways, but I'm not sure that actually solves the problem.

Also included some close up pictures of new glue joints from the install job. I'd never seen clear glue before, but also noticed it's got lots of bubbles, which is rather suspect. I couldn't confirm an air leak at those joints, but who knows. Part of me is inclined to chop out the whole section from just above the ground and install all new plumbing with a new jandy valve... (But I suppose I may as well try caulk first if I figure out the union).

 

[Texas Splash]

Yeah, I would save the chop job as a last resort. For the union gasket, try reaching out to Pool zoom, Inyopools, or a place I found online once called Mr Gasket or Gasket something. If I can find it I'll post it. Sorry, I don't recall, but they have everything.

 

[TexasDogs]

Follow up to this post: Suction side leak driving me bonkers - please help!

Who knows if it's the only leak, but unless I'm crazy, I've confirmed that there is a leak at the pump inlet, both at the pump interface itself and where the union seats. I used soap bubbles and they sure seem to be getting sucked in at both spots:

For comparison, to make sure it was just bubbles dissipating, I put some at a glued pipe fitting and they stick around much longer.

I have replaced the gasket, o-ring, and even the part of the union that threads into the pump (only part not replaced is the glued on part). Lubed up nice and good - still leaking. Disassembled, added pipe dope, lubed up, reassembled - still leaking. Ok, what's next - this time I added teflon tape as well (getting desperate!) - STILL LEAKING. I'm at my wit's end here and cannot for the life of me figure out how to stop this.

What else can I do?

All I can think of is either:

• Apply silicone caulk to these joints. I'd rather not do that, especially on the pump itself. I guess it would be removable, but kind of a pain.
• Chop out and replace with a different type of union.
  • This is the union currently there: https://intheswim.com/p/union-threaded-2-mpt-x-2-slip-for-intelliflo-whisperflo/30211.html. It does seem a bit unique - took me a while to find this particular one with the same kind of gray gasket. And the face that mates with that gray gasket really doesn't have a very smooth surface. The one originally in there had glue on it that I tried to clean off, but even the replacement I got is pretty rough with machine marks. Wondering if another brand of union would simply be better? Though, I really don't understand how it's still leaking at the interface with the pump itself - that's a pretty straightforward mating surface with a seemingly good o-ring.
  • Challenge here is I don't really have any real estate to cut and glue on a new fitting. I almost feel like I have to cut upstream of my spa/pool selector valve and start from there. Any other creative solutions for replacing this union?

 

[Texas Splash]

Normally any of the above would've solved the issue unless we're overlooking something right in front of our face. Let's call upon a fresh set of eyes - @1poolman1 for another opinion.

 

[TexasDogs]

How bad do you think I'd regret applying silicone caulk to the pump inlet? I'm out of ideas, but seems like that'll be a real pain for any future maintenance.

 

[Texas Splash]

How bad do you think I'd regret applying silicone caulk to the pump inlet?

Just around the outside of the nut? No big issue. You can cut it away later as needed.

 

[TexasDogs]

Just around the outside of the nut? No big issue. You can cut it away later as needed.

Well, I did it. I feel like it got slightly better, but still definitely air in the system. Losing my mind!

I'm starting to feel like chopping it all off and replumbing is all I have left. Or maybe call the leak guys out again...

Here's a new question - I have to leave the pool unattended for a while (at least a week, maybe more). Is there any concern about equipment damage? I've been at least bleeding the air out of the system every so often, but if I'm not around to do that, is something bad likely to happen?

 

[Texas Splash]

Is there any concern about equipment damage? I've been at least bleeding the air out of the system every so often, but if I'm not around to do that, is something bad likely to happen?

If you aren't leaving for a couple days, I would let the pump run without purging the air to see if continues to drop and try to go "dry", if it just remains slightly low and steady. That might be a deciding factor. Sometimes it's nice to have a friend or neighbor check on things once a day. Purge the pump air, empty the skimmer basket, etc.

 

[JFarr]

Could part of the problem here be too little straight pipe in front of the pump? I've read that that can cause turbulence and cavitation. Maybe that's what you're experiencing and not a suction leak.

Just a thought, I'm no expert.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Do you have any idea what happened to here?

That should be a coupler coming off the center of the diverter valve. What type of fitting is attached over the coupler? Is that a magic mend fitting? I haven't seen a fitting that would work over a coupler. I would bet that this is where your problem is. There's a reason somebody used the outside of the valve as opposed to the inside slip connection.

 

[TexasDogs]

Do you have any idea what happened to here?
View attachment 596783
That should be a coupler coming off the center of the diverter valve. What type of fitting is attached over the coupler? Is that a magic mend fitting? I haven't seen a fitting that would work over a coupler. I would bet that this is where your problem is. There's a reason somebody used the outside of the valve as opposed to the inside slip connection.

I don't have a good overhead picture to truly compare, but here's what it looked like with the old pump. Bc the pipe was glued into the diverter valve, I think the installer was stuck with it and came up with this frankenstein situation. I can't quite tell.

I can't figure out how to replace this section (or even the union) other than chopping the inlet pipes below the diverter valve and just installing a new one. Am I missing some easier way?

I did note like @JFarr commented, that there's not much straight pipe before the inlet, so if I do replumb, I'll try to eek in a bit more, but I only have a few inches of play to move the pump back.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

I did a bit more research and did find a Magic Mend fitting that is designed to fit on the outside of a coupler fitting. Check out this video:

I've used these Magic Mend fittings and I've found some fit correctly, but others fit loose and don't form a proper connection. My guess it's because the outside of socket fittings aren't intended to have fittings installed on the outside.

I'm not saying this is the problem, but it is an area to check further.

I can't figure out how to replace this section (or even the union) other than chopping the inlet pipes below the diverter valve and just installing a new one. Am I missing some easier way?

I like that idea, but others might recommend heat or socket savers to remove the fitting connected to the valve.

Good luck!

 

[TexasDogs]

I did a bit more research and did find a Magic Mend fitting that is designed to fit on the outside of a coupler fitting. Check out this video:

I've used these Magic Mend fittings and I've found some fit correctly, but others fit loose and don't form a proper connection. My guess it's because the outside of socket fittings aren't intended to have fittings installed on the outside.

I'm not saying this is the problem, but it is an area to check further.


I like that idea, but others might recommend heat or socket savers to remove the fitting connected to the valve.

Good luck!

From a quick search on socket savers... Does that entail just cutting the pipe and then using the socket saver to ream out what's left inside? Does that really yield a good enough surface to replumb?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Check out this article. I forgot to post it...

PVC Repair - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I have not used heat or a socket saver.

 

[PoolStored]

From a quick search on socket savers... Does that entail just cutting the pipe and then using the socket saver to ream out what's left inside? Does that really yield a good enough surface to replumb?

Yes, they work wonders and the seal is excellent. I would not hesitate to get even the cheap $14 ones. Still have mine from all my replumbing.